Mini Orchard Collection

[FB.]

Are you planning on trying a 'redlove', FB? They look nice, but marketing and end produce are two different things

No, I won't be trying Redlove.
I'm more into the old, long-keeping, trouble-free varieties. I get fruit of excellent quality and also preserve the gene pool, which is getting all-too-small due to growers constantly using Cox or Golden Delicious as parents. One day, not too far down the road - perhaps late in our lifetime - apples will be sickly inbred mutants that can't survive without drip-feeding of "life support" chemicals.

I'm finding that the best results for "backyard, no-spray growers" come from the ancient and forgotten varieties.
They may be light or erratic croppers. They may produce mis-shapen or dull fruit.
But many of the rare old varieties knock spots (excuse the pun!) off the modern varieties when it comes to being able to tolerate less-than-ideal conditions.
Centuries ago, there were no spray routines and no special soil conditions. Fruit trees just had to "make do" with wherever they were planted. Many ancient varieties produce more and better fruit when grown in poor, low-fertility soil. Unlike modern varieties which - being bred purely for full-spray/liquid-fed commercial orchard requirements - depend on deep, rich, moist, fertile soil to survive.

Modern varieties all to easily "runt out" and become spur-bound and sickly on poor soil. Ancient varieties take it in stride, helped by their habit of not putting every bit of their energy into cropping before they are really strong enough in a backyard environment.

[FB.]

Thank you so much for answering; really helpful.
I'm in London; I've read that JG is vulnerable to disease, but the weird thing was that although the woolly aphid was bad, I'm amazed it was bad enough to kill it completely. If no leaves on that tree, does that mean it's a goner and I shd just pull it out?
If you could still suggest rootstocks and trees I'd be enormously grateful, esp. as you're clearly as passionate about varieties as I am. I know the obvious answer is to go for something modern and everything-proof, but that's not the point...I want flavour, and heritage, but b/c I have such a small space and am not expert I need to avoid another disaster like this one, which was unbelievably disappointing.
I can't remember the rootstock, annoyingly, but think it was probably MM106, looking at the website. I wonder if part of the problem was that they're close to the wall (tho surely that's the point with fan-training?); the supplier suggested it was. Also, perhaps they're too close - only a metre or so apart, tho again the supplier originally thought that wd be fine. The wall is high, but only approx 4 metres wide.
Perhaps I could dig out the trees - including the semi-leafing one, b/c not blossom? - dig out their holes, put in more compost and start again?
Thanks so much for your help, FB, really appreciate it. I don't yet have an allotment and have no nearby gardeners to ask for advice, so any guidance in the vacuum makes a great difference.

I grow James Grieve and find it to be fairly trouble-free. But many other growers - mostly in wetter regions - find it troublesome for canker or scab.
The woolly aphids may have infected it with canker and it is the canker that killed it.
Given that the tree got woolly aphids in the first place, it maybe was not on a strong rootstock and couldn't thrive.
MM106 (semi-vigorous; the most commonly used rootstock for apples in all forms) and MM111 (vigorous; not often used, except for really poor soils) have some deterrence value against woolly aphids.
M26 (semi-dwarfing) is very prone to woolly aphids and may not be vigorous enough for fans or espaliers. Perhaps you had M26 rootstock?

Choice of rootstock will depend on soil quality and what you're trying to achieve.
MM106 is a good all-rounder, with adequate vigour for most uses and soils, good fruit quality - and partial resistance to woolly aphids.
However, MM106 is more sensitive to dry soil than most apple rootstocks and is more like M26 vigour in dry soil. In good, moisture-retaining soil, MM106 is more like MM111 vigour and can get quite large.
If the soil conditions are poor, MM111 will handle it better than any other apple rootstock, including tolerating it better than the "very vigorous" M25 rootstock.
Once established (after a couple of years), MM111 will tolerate severe conditions; drought, waterlogging, harsh winters.
Unfortunately, MM111 is not widely available, being considered too vigorous for most garden uses and considered to have inferior cropping than MM106.
MM111 would have to be bought as a baby tree of a single stem about 3-5ft high (size depending on variety), which would take some years to transform into a fan or espalier.

Sometimes, planting close to walls means that the tree doesn't get normal rainfall, since the wall blocks out rain from one direction. and any rain that lands on the wall tends to soak into the bricks and not into the ground.
Again, MM106 and weaker rootstocks such as M26 may not like the dry-ish conditions, but this can be solved with watering in the early years.
My preferred watering method is to only water once every few weeks in summer, but dump a few bucketloads of water on them when I do water.
This treatment makes the roots hungry for water and encourages the roots to chase the water down through the soil when they finally do get some water, thus improving and expanding the root system.

Can you put your location in your profile, and I'll see which apple varieties I can think of that seem best suited to your needs and climate.
If you're not too far away from me, I may even have something suitable in my "reserve" stock that you can have.

Some variety/rootstock combinations that have done particularly well in my poor soil - strong and healthy - include:

Tydeman's Late Orange MM111 (quick to establish, healthy, heavy cropper but small fruit)

Crawley Beauty M25 (quick to establish and very healthy, heavy cropper)

Belle de Boskoop MM111 (vigorous, quick to establish, very healthy, slow to start fruiting and will keep growing all its life, potentially - if not pruned - forming an enormous but magnificent and long-lived tree)

D'Arcy Spice M25 (quick to establish and very healthy, slow growing, but keeps growing slowly all its life)

Court Pendu Plat MM111 and M25 (quick to establish, healthy, but somewhat slow growing)

Notice the above have one or two features in common:

Vigorous
(the tree is rearing to go and doesn't need much encouragement)

or

Quickly lays down a strong root system
(e.g. D'Arcy Spice grows slowly above ground because it directs a lot of energy into root growth; forming an enormous root system below ground)

or

Continues to grow at a reasonable rate throughout its life, which means that it doesn't literally kill itself in tough years by trying to put all its energy into fruiting.

.

Also consider the following varieties:

Spartan M25
Laxton's Epicure M25
ArdCairn Russet MM111

However, they may not all be suitable for wetter areas - especially Tydeman's Late Orange, Spartan and Laxton's Epicure, which have various reports of severe problems in wet areas.

[FB.]

P.S. I don't know the etiquette yet for this forum, but want to know...who ARE you? Am curious! If that's an evil sin, forget I ever asked...

I don't know whether it's a sin to ask, but it hasn't offended me.

But I'm curious to know why you're curious to know.

My first name is Nigel, but everyone calls me "FB".
The "F" is short for "Fluff" or "Fluffy", a reference (originating in my teens) to my excessive hairness.
The "B" is the initial of my surname, but I'd prefer to keep that anonymous on an open internet forum.

There is a basic profile page on this site if you click my name and go to the "about me" tab at the upper right.
> Link here <

Also another site (investing) that I belong to, which has a more comprehensive member profile here:
> Link here <

The "958" insert between F and B was because when I joined the site last year, I was enthusiastic about silver and there is a little-known silver alloy - 958 parts per thousand - known as Britannia silver.

Does that about cover it?

[chris]

Speaking of which... NS&I's indexed linked certs are open for sale again

[FB.]

Speaking of which... NS&I's indexed linked certs are open for sale again

A fruit tree is an excellent investment - better than most of what's available on the London or New York Stock Exchanges - which will pay for itself many times over without requiring much effort after the first few years.

My "hot" investment tip: plant a fruit tree.

[chris]

[BroadRipple]

more re: the search for the perfect apple

Hello and thanks again for your help; so great to have expert feedback.
I'm in NW London, and the problem is that my garden is not only tiny but so surrounded by wobbly walls (am on hill) that I think a fan/cordon is the only option. And yes, I suspect the wall it was against took most of the water. The simplest answer is probably to buy a 'patio' i.e. ballerina or dwarf tree and grow it in a pot, but as I'm interested in old varieties this isn't right for me. The ones you suggest sound lovely and similar to those I researched, but it's about balancing potential size with pathetic space... So the question is:
a)do I pull up my poor JG (have wanted one since childhood!) and add compost to the soil and then try something else, bearing in mind it wd have to be narrow, if tall - one of your suggestions, chosen primarily for flavour (if/when I ever have an orchard I'm going to try lots of old varieties, but with just one tree...). Lovely of you to suggest one of your reserves, if we can work out a suitable one that wd be fantastic, thanks so much.
b) shd I assume my Charles Ross is soon to be a goner too?
c)is fan-training a bit of a dead loss in my circs; shd I just give up?
and d)woolly aphid is back on the CR; I just toothbrush meths on to it, is that right?
oh and d)thank you for background information!
BroadRipple


Can you put your location in your profile, and I'll see which apple varieties I can think of that seem best suited to your needs and climate.
If you're not too far away from me, I may even have something suitable in my "reserve" stock that you can have.

[FB.]

I suspect that the walls are creating a lot of shade, which is favoured by woolly aphids.
In such conditions, even MM106 or MM111 rootstock may not be enough of a deterrent.

If the location is quite shady, you may have some issues with inadequate ripening. You may be better to look for early-mid season eaters, or look for cookers which, being acid anyway, don’t need as much sun.

To answer your questions...

A
If the JG is dead, it is best removed. If it is still alive, it may be salvageable. Can you do some pictures, so that we can perform a virtual autopsy on its cause of death?
I would think that in London, or the SouthEast, it should be reasonably straightforward to grow James Grieve without needing sprays. James Grieve loves a semi-shade location or dull summers in the South of the UK and I’ve found that it hates a hot, dry, full sun spot in my area.
I think that your JG's problems are due to either woolly aphids causing canker, or the dryness of the soil at the base of the wall, or that it was diseased from the nursery and was doomed to fail. Pictures may help find the cause of the problem.
Some nursery trees are riddled with – or carry - diseases nowadays and failure rates can be quite high. I keep a few “reserves” for that reason.

B
The Charles Ross can be cleared of woolly aphids if you keep attacking them as soon as seen. You could also consider a good mulch of compost, a bit of fertiliser and a good drenching with tap water (MM106 doesn’t like stagnant water from a water butt; too acid and too many water moulds). Give it a few bucketfuls of tap water when you do water it, but don’t water it more than once per fortnight unless it starts to wilt because MM106 roots will rot in saturated soil. MM106 is a fussy rootstock, disliking excessive wetness and disliking excessive dryness.
Given the presumed shade of the walls, the soil moisture retention should be quite good. Once the MM106 roots get moving out of the dry soil near the wall and into the moist soil, you may find that it grows rather more strongly than you hoped for.
C
I don’t see a problem with fan training. I don’t think that you need to give up. Crack down hard on the woolly aphids – absolute elimination is essential - and keep the tree fertilised, mulched and occasionally heavily watered. Once established, it probably won’t need much assistance, other than pruning.
D
Yes, a toothbrush or small paint brush dipped in meths is useful to get rid of woolly aphid. During the winter, you can also prune out certain small areas that may be infested with woolly aphids.

..................................

A few apple varieties are really disliked by woolly aphid, so if they are a persistent problem, you could consider seeking out the following rare varieties, which have strong resistance to woolly aphid and when coupled with a MM106 or MM111 rootstock, these varieties should taste really bad to the woolly aphids:

Winter Majetin (late-ripening, ancient cooker)
Irish Peach (very early ripening, eater, mostly tip bearer which complicates pruning)
Northern Spy (American, late-ripening, multi-purpose apple; parent of the MM rootstocks, from which their woolly aphid resistance is inherited)

Alternatively, consider varieties with strong resistance to canker, so that woolly aphid damage doesn’t easily get infected.
Varieties with good all-round resistance, including some resistance to canker, and which would also tolerate semi-shade, include:
Annie Elizabeth
Belle de Boskoop
Crawley Beauty
Grenadier
Reverend Wilks
Alfriston
Egremont Russet

[mrbadexample]

Well FB, you certainly gave me a lot to think about.

I've had to go away and look at apples I think I'd like - not an easy task considering the numbers.

Can I ask what you think of Charles Ross? Would it be a suitable variety for the position in which I want my tree?

Cheers,
MBE

[mrbadexample]

And is this any good? It does look nice.

[FB.]

Charles Ross is quite a good variety, all things considered.

I have no idea about Pixirosso, but I imagine that it was bred for looks, rather than for disease resistance. I would be cautious of rootstock M9, which will remain quite small in most soils and is more like having a pet that needs lots of feeding and watering, rather than having a servant that takes care of itself and gives you fruit without much effort.
The breeding stations have to keep churning out new varieties to make a sale. There will generally be a lot of hype surrounding a new variety, but any bad points may be intentionally not mentioned.
New varieties may also be trialled in a specific location, known for producing good fruits and where diseases aren't so prevalent. This artificially skews "experimental data" to make the new varieties look like the best thing since......last year's new variety.

Regarding red-flesh apples; only a few weeks ago, someone had what they believed to be a "Redlove" that was being troubled by canker.

From personal experience, I won't be bothering much with these modern varieties; there are plenty of old varieties that were raised in much harsher conditions and poorer soils than today. Those ancient varieties may have less attractive fruit, lighter cropping or otherwise quirky characteristics, but that is more than made up by their survivability in the most difficult conditions. They have passed the test of time - often being superbly adapted to special situations. In fact the old varieties actually give their best performance when grown on a strong rootstock in a pitiful soil that would make most modern varieties die from malnutrition within a couple of seasons. Of course, that's the way that our ancestors often had to grow them.

I have a graft from an ancient old tree (200 years old and still healthy) near Oxford and it is fantastically healthy and frighteningly vigorous, even on my poor, shallow, infertile soil in a drought year and competing against full grass cover for water and nutrients.
It is on "vigorous" MM111 rootstock.

Contrast this with my modern variety: Jupiter, on "very vigorous" M25 rootstock.
It is a triploid and is recommended to very dwarf rootstocks because, like many triploids, it is capable of growing rapidly.
It seems reasonably disease resistant, but now that it has to fend for itself, it is not keeping up with the growth of its (theoretically less vigorous) companions.
It is even being outrun by an old variety called "First and Last" of medium vigour (T2 vigour: average growth rate) on "vigorous" MM111 rootstock, despite Jupiter being considered to be T3 vigour (fast growth rate) and on the "very vigorous" M25 rootstock.

Likewise for D'Arcy Spice, which will tolerate being grown almost in infertile dry sand near the coast. In fact, for best fruit quality, it prefers a hot, dry, sunny location.
It doesn't suffer malnutrition or get sickly (unlike modern varieties) even in the poorest soil and its slow-growing nature doesn't put too much water or nutrient demand on the root system. It naturally forms an unusually large root system for such a small and slow-growing tree.
It also happens to be "virtually" free from disease.

Likewise for Crawley Beauty, Barnack Orange or Barnack Beauty, all of which will grow well in poor soil, - especially in the case of the last two - where a high-pH chalky subsoil seriously impairs the growth of most plants.

If you want something that is virtually indestructible, consider "Hambledon Deux Ans" on MM111 rootstock. In the unlikely event that it can't resist a particular disease, its ferocious vigour simply outgrows it. It is renowned for being extremely vigorous, forming very large trees if left unpruned, and will probably live for two centuries; the vigour is part of what keeps it - or any apple tree - healthy and long-lived.
The modern varieties all-too-easily lose their vigour due to poor soil or overcropping due to being too early to come into cropping (early cropping is commercially essential for profitability), which then causes them to become malnourished and succumb to disease. Modern sprays, irrigation systems and the like encourage growers to resort to spraying to protect trees, rather than growing lower-productivity trees that can shrug off disease all by themselves.

....................

In summary:
The Charles Ross should be OK.

If you plan to get another variety at some point, find a really old and rare variety. They are generally much tougher than today's "shelf-appeal" type of apple.
Interestingly, even the woolly aphids would not touch my "First and Last" tree, despite it being grown-up next to a heavily-woolly-aphid-infested Bramley in a shady location.

[mrbadexample]

If you want something that is virtually indestructible, consider "Hambledon Deux Ans" on MM111 rootstock. In the unlikely event that it can't resist a particular disease, its ferocious vigour simply outgrows it. It is renowned for being extremely vigorous, forming very large trees if left unpruned, and will probably live for two centuries;

Nooo! It would take over my little garden and shade everything out! Although I am trying to persuade my mate to plant a fruit tree the other side of his back fence, in the waste ground between his house and the railway.

In summary:
The Charles Ross should be OK.

If you plan to get another variety at some point, find a really old and rare variety. They are generally much tougher than today's "shelf-appeal" type of apple.
Interestingly, even the woolly aphids would not touch my "First and Last" tree, despite it being grown-up next to a heavily-woolly-aphid-infested Bramley in a shady location.

I won't have space for more than one.

I'd like to thank you wholeheartedly for your extensive and comprehensive posts. You are clearly both passionate and knowledgeable about your apples!

Now just one more question!

1. What rootstock would you recommend for a Charles Ross, to be grown in a 2-tier espalier along my left fence?

Edit: And the same question for James Grieve please. Sorry, there's just so much choice.

Cheers,
MBE

[FB.]

I won't have space for more than one.

Don't worry. There are usually plenty of suitable pollinators around in nearby streets and gardens.
Charles Ross and James Grieve are partly self fertile anyway.

1. What rootstock would you recommend for a Charles Ross, to be grown in a 2-tier espalier along my left fence?

MM106 is the usual choice for fans, espaliers and other trained forms.

MM111 would be more suited to a poor, dry, infertile soil (try digging down and see how deep your topsoil and what is beneath), but MM111 is slower to start cropping and even when mature, is not such a good cropper - in terms of either quantity or quality - as MM106 in normal conditions.
MM111 is not as readily available as MM106 and what is available is likely to be a maiden whip about 4-5ft tall, half-inch thick and little in the way of branches.
If you buy mail-order "bare-root", almost everything will come as a 4-5ft "unbranched stick", so will take some years of work to establish, train and then get cropping.

I suggest that when you plant it, if it is container grown, make sure that any circling roots are untangled and - despite what "the books" say about not disturbing rootballs of container grown plants - crumble away the outermost half of the compost on the rootball immediately before planting the tree and spread out the tangled roots that were growing and circling around in the outermost compost.
This will serve to both increase root spread and discourage the roots from remaining in the compost rootball. Roots grow where the soil is best and will not grow from a compost rootball into the relatively poorer surrounding soil unless you put the roots there yourself.
Keep well mulched for the first few years. It is better to water only occasionally (e.g. every couple of weeks at most, even in dry spells) but when you do water, drown it with a couple of bucketfuls.
This "feast-famine" encourages the water-starved roots grow in rapid bursts, to chase the water downwards as the uppermost soil dries between waterings. After a couple of years, the roots will grow away from the dry wall and the tree should be self-sustaining.

Edit: And the same question for James Grieve please. Sorry, there's just so much choice.

James Grieve is of somewhat similar vigour to Charles Ross, so MM106 rootstock would be best under normal conditions, or MM111 under poor conditions.

...........

Where to get them?

Trees grown on MM106 are in garden centres or nurseries almost everywhere. MM106 is the standard apple rootstock and more are grown on it for garden use than any other rootstock.
While garden centre/nursery prices may seem quite high compared to "bare root", you will be able to avoid mail-order shipping costs of about £15 and will be able to hand-pick your tree - or even find a part-trained tree that will save you some years of work and waiting.
In my area (quite a pricey part of the country), I can find MM106 fan/espalier-trained (about 4ft high, 5ft wide, with 2-3 tiers) for about £35 in some out-of-town specialist fruit tree nurseries.
Fans/espaliers are too delicate for mail-order.

[FB.]

.

I would highly recommend the following nursery:

> Link <

Prices may be slightly more than some nurseries, but their apple tree stock is some of the strongest and healthiest I've ever seen and well worth the money, compared to the stunted and sickly specimens that some nurseries ship out.
All mail-order trees are not equal. You tend to get what you pay for.

They even show mail-order stock of two-tier espaliers.
For espaliers in your location, from their stock, I would avoid:

Ashmead's Kernel
Braeburn
Cox
Kidd's Orange Red
Ribston Pippin
Superb (Laxton's)


The one that I would most fancy would be:
Egremont Russet.

Egremont Russet is a better cropper in below-average soils than in good soils and will tolerate considerable neglect and disease once it is established. It has strong all-round disease resistance: scab, mildew, canker and suffers less than average pest damage.
It grows slightly slower than average, readily forms fruit spurs and my own E.R. tree seems to always have a high pollination rate, although can be biennial if allowed to overcrop.
It is prone to bitter pit, which is associated with too much nitrogen. However, E.R.'s tolerance of poor soil means that, once established, it doesn't need much feeding.

[mrbadexample]

MM111 would be more suited to a poor, dry, infertile soil (try digging down and see how deep your topsoil and what is beneath),

I dug up a bit by the fence for a new rhubarb plant today, and it actually seems pretty good. It's full of stones, but once I'd picked the worst of them out and rotavated, it didn't seem too bad at all.

Where to get them?

In my area (quite a pricey part of the country), I can find MM106 fan/espalier-trained (about 4ft high, 5ft wide, with 2-3 tiers) for about £35 in some out-of-town specialist fruit tree nurseries.

That sounds perfect - would give me a good head start. I guess I start looking for local fruit-tree nurseries then.