Mini Orchard Collection

[mrbadexample]

The one that I would most fancy would be:
Egremont Russet.

I've had a look at this one, but to be honest I don't fancy it at all. I don't really like russeted apples. I spent days looking through various apples, trying to find one that I would appreciate most. The top two contenders were the Charles Ross and James Grieve.

[mrbadexample]

Prices may be slightly more than some nurseries, but their apple tree stock is some of the strongest and healthiest I've ever seen and well worth the money, compared to the stunted and sickly specimens that some nurseries ship out.
All mail-order trees are not equal. You tend to get what you pay for.

If I stop to think about it any longer I'll change my mind again, or go mad. So one 2-year, 2-tier espalier James Grieve should be on its way to me in November.
Thanks again for all your help. I'll be back in 2012 asking you how to prune it.

[BroadRipple]

Hello FB and MBE,
I've had a little time to read and digest all this, and it's been very helpful - FB you are a marvel and we're very lucky to have you, so thank you SO much.
It's very hard deciding what to do, isn't it MBE, when you have only space for one!
I haven't had time to post photos am afraid. But it's hard to believe that my JG will magically revive - though I can't quite bring myself to pull it out. So sad, have wanted one since teenagehood. And as my CG does have leaves, I'll do as you say FB and pounce on the woolly aphids, and hope for next year.
In conclusion, do you think that even if I a)keep a better control of aphid b)ensure more water (I thought I had!) and c)improve the soil, I shd learn by the fate of my 2 trees and try in a pot next time?
And if so, FB you've been fantastic about varieties (I too love an Eg. Russet) and am drawn to the others you suggest: D'Arcy Spice, Crawley Beauty, Barnack Orange or Barnack Beauty...depends on flavour. BUT are any of these on any rootstock that I'm likely to be able to buy going to work in a pot? Bit like footbinding I know, but I can't bear the idea of a 'ballerina'.
Also - am curious, what's your Oxford tree? Am from there so feeling patriotic...
Huge thanks again.

[FB.]

Hello FB and MBE,
as my CG does have leaves, I'll do as you say FB and pounce on the woolly aphids, and hope for next year.
In conclusion, do you think that even if I a)keep a better control of aphid b)ensure more water (I thought I had!) and c)improve the soil, I shd learn by the fate of my 2 trees and try in a pot next time?

Perhaps your soil pH is too acidic (MM106 will tolerate alkaline but not acidic soil, dislikes droughtly soil and dislikes soil prone to waterlogging)

If, after three years, you are still having problems, perhaps consider MM111 rootstock, which is much more tolerant of just about any type of difficult conditions than any other apple rootstock.
If you happen to be passing near to Cambridge at some point, I think that I have a MM111-rootstock tree of the following, in my "spares", which you could have for free (subject to the tree looking healthy at the time and me not needing it):

Ard Cairn Russet
Bountiful
Court Pendu Plat
Discovery
Egremont Russet
D'Arcy Spice

.

Also, I have spares on M25 rootstock:

Court Pendu Plat
D'Arcy Spice
Edward VII
Howgate Wonder

Also spares on M26 rootstock:
Cockle Pippin (very bent trunk!)
D'Arcy Spice (this years shoots have been badly pecked by bullfinches)

.

Why is MM111 so good in poor conditions?
It is very disease resistant, with good resistance to crown and root rots in heavy soils, some resistance to woolly aphids, and is hardier than the other UK apple rootstocks, in very cold or very warm locations.
MM111 has an unusual root system, with a much greater number of fine roots than other apple rootstocks, which mean a larger absorbing surface for water and nutrients. The MM111 roots are also quick to respond to water after a long drought.
MM106 on the other hand, really shuts down in dry soil and even after rainfall/watering, will not grow many new roots until the soil has remained damp for quite a long time. Of course, in dry summers or poor soil, the soil can quickly dry out again, before MM106 roots really get moving. The other problem with MM106 is that if the soil is too wet, the roots will rot.
In other words: MM106 is very much affected by soil moisture. It is a good all-round rootstock in normal conditions, but not at all suitable for difficult conditions.

And if so, FB you've been fantastic about varieties (I too love an Eg. Russet) and am drawn to the others you suggest: D'Arcy Spice, Crawley Beauty, Barnack Orange or Barnack Beauty...depends on flavour. BUT are any of these on any rootstock that I'm likely to be able to buy going to work in a pot? Bit like footbinding I know, but I can't bear the idea of a 'ballerina'.

Ballerina trees tend to be grown on MM106 rootstock.

Of the several varieties above, Egremont Russet is the best flavoured (and easy to find), with D'Arcy Spice second.
D'Arcy Spice needs a couple of months in storage to finish ripening and, once established, prefers a hot, dry, full sun position and a long summer with lots of autumn warmth and sun to ripen the very-late-picking fruit (traditionally the end of the first week of November).
D'Arcy Spice is a super-long keeping apple that is not especially attractive, is tough-skinned, hard-fleshed, sharp, flavourless and foul-smelling when first picked and is meant for use after most other apples have gone soft or rotten. It can keep in simple unheated garage storage for about six months and the flavour appears after storage.

D'Arcy Spice is so slow growing that you could grow it in a pot on any rootstock that you please. It also doesn't suffer from bitter pit, or other malnutrition due to over- or under-feeding, or from inexperienced pruning.
As an example of its slow growth: I have a handful of 3 year old "reserve stock" D'Arcy Spice trees on the "very vigorous" M25 and "vigorous" MM111 rootstocks and they are no more than about 3ft tall, unpruned. They have already formed several side branches, all the way down to the ground.
"Normal" (T2) varieties would be about twice that size at the same age, with less branching.
The "vigorous" (T3) varieties would be about three times that size.

Crawley Beauty is easy to control too, due to its tendency to produce huge amounts of blossom and therefore easy to channel energy into fruiting instead of growth at a young age. It doesn't seem to have malnutrition or bitter pit problems.

The Victorians used to like the slow-growing, compact variety "Court Pendu Plat" for containers. Like DS and CB above, CPP will grow in low-fertility soils and, like the others, tends to form an "oversized" root system that can easily sustain the small tree that grows above ground.

The following varieties are especially recommended for growing in pots, due to the branching habit, fruiting habit, and easily controllable growth:
Cockle Pippin
Court Pendu Plat
Egremont Russet
Ellison's Orange

I would also add:
Crawley Beauty
D'Arcy Spice
Edward VII

I prefer M26 rootstock for containers, but some of the very slow-growing varieties may be best on MM106 or even MM111 in a container.

The following tree size estimator might help with balancing the variety and the rootstock. Bear in mind that a tree can be kept to about half its "official" size by good pruning technique.
> Tree size estimator <

Based on your problematic MM106's, it sounds as if your garden soil should be rated as "below average", or possibly "poor".

Also - am curious, what's your Oxford tree? Am from there so feeling patriotic...
Huge thanks again.

The tree is a variety whose original name is no longer known. The tree is abnormally vigorous (T3 vigour) and quite large-leaved - and these can be signs that is a triploid (may need a pollination partner).
The strong vigour and possible triploid nature could predispose the tree to bitter pit, which is a common problem in vigorous triploid apple trees. High vigour and bitter pit are a recipe for disaster if growing as a restricted form.

[BroadRipple]

very helpful again - you are the applemeister. thank you! am rarely near Cambridge but that's an incredibly generous offer, thank you so much - if I ever am I'll definitely be in touch. And in the meantime, D'Arcy Spice doesn't sound right for me as I have nowhere to store, but am very cheered that good old-fashioned types can work in pots - will research.
re: soil, I suspect that the problem is partly that I bought the trees in a fit of apple-longing, but when they arrived I hadn't prepared the soil; they each have a very small area of bare soil (couple of square feet) among paving stones, with more but I suspect very poor soil underneath. Likely to be clay rather than acid, but I suspect lots of builders' sand etc too. Do you think that digging out what I can find and replacing with say gritty compost would work? Or, as discussed, forget apples there and go straight to a huge pot?

[FB.]

London is known for clay soil.
Clay soils can be quite heavy, cold, low in oxygen and prone to waterlogging. Heavy soils can be acidic due to the persistently damp soil absorbing the same kind of atmospheric gases as found in "acid rain".
Such heavy and acid soils could be good for blueberries and cranberries.

MM106 would not like a cold, water-saturated soil. Neither would the "very vigorous" M25 rootstock.

I don't see why you couldn't grow apples though.

If you think that your soil may be the problem, you should investigate what is wrong, before trying something else.
Have a dig down and see what lies at a depth of a foot or two.
How wet or dry is the soil?

When you've dug a nice 1-2ft deep hole for your soil type/quality investigation, fill it with water and see how fast it drains. Then fill the hole with water a second time and see how fast it drains when the soil is already saturated from the first load of water.
Seconds or minutes is too fast drainage (roots can't get the water before it drains away). A day or more is too slow (roots suffocate due to lack of air getting into the ground). A few hours is ideal.
Sand and gravel can be used to improve drainage. Compost can be used to slow drainage and improve moisture retention - but don't use too much, especially if it is home-made compost, which is very acidic and can cause acid burns to young roots.

Is it possible that, rather than the soil being too damp, perhaps it is too dry due to the paving slabs actually blocking/running-off water from getting to the tree roots?

Whatever your soil problem, there will probably be a way around it.

You can consider adding sand/gravel to improve drainage, or adding organic matter and mulches to retain moisture. You can add lime to raise the pH if the soil is too acid. You can plant trees on a slight mound to keep the undergroung part of the trunk clear of a water-saturated part of the soil.
The rootstock MM111 would be another option, due to it being one of the toughest around and due to its unusual root structure that gives it an advantage over most other apple rootstocks.

I use MM111 quite a lot, due to my abnormally poor soil (shallow, fast-draining, low-rainfall, low-fertility). MM111 copes very well with difficult growing conditions, whether drought, flooding, hot summers or bitterly cold winters.

But, being quite vigorous, MM111 is best reserved for difficult sites that are impairing the vigour or health of other apple rootstocks.

.

It is also possible that the trees that you received were poor quality and doomed to fail no matter what you did with them.
In my opinion, due to fruit growing having been in decline for many years, quite a number of the fruit tree nurseries that remain are often old, with depleted soil and riddled with diseases that have built up over many decades. The owners aren't particularly dedicated any more and simply aim to sell as many trees with as little effort on their part as possible.
The quality of stock from some nurseries is much inferior to others.

Some of the healthiest and most lively stock can be had from > Keepers Nursery < in Kent - but their stock also happens to not be among the cheapest. To a large extent, you often get what you pay for.

[mrbadexample]

If I stop to think about it any longer I'll change my mind again, or go mad. So one 2-year, 2-tier espalier James Grieve should be on its way to me in November.
Thanks again for all your help. I'll be back in 2012 asking you how to prune it.

Oh dear. I've changed my mind. (That's what you get from being a Libra - I can't weigh up what's best!)

I've been given loads of apples this year - they've been very easy to come by. I haven't, however, seen a single pear. So I've now decided that's what I want. Sorry.

FB, if you'll still talk to me, do you think a Williams Bon Chretien 2-year cordon on a Quince C rootstock would be suitable? I hope so, as I've ordered one. and paid for it. No going back now.

Oddly, I feel very comfortable with the choice of a pear over an apple. I think I'll benefit more from it.

[BroadRipple]

Hello chaps again...
MR Bad, I'm just as...well, bad...i agonised and agonised and tried to commit to heart every word FB wrote...and then in a flurry of enthusiasm bought a plum tree. A Cambridge Gage, which isn't even an obvious one. So I share your loony indecision, and salute it...
FB, though, if WE're still speaking, I do still long for an apple tree. I never get given enough apples! And your advice was v helpful and has led me towards an egemont. russet, which I do love anyway, although they're quite easy to buy in markets etc so perhaps it's a pity for that to be my only one...
and I don't feel I've ever had your true and full views of container trees and yr top choice for one of those...
still haven't been able to force self to pull out those poor apple trees.