Winter Apple Pruning

[Garden_Chris]

Hi guys, just a quick question about Apple Tree pruning. I'm aware that to promote new, vigorous growth in the summer it is necessary to remove certain parts of the tree.

My concerns were, however, that with regards to the overall structure of the trees I have, I am fond of their current (I suppose) 'trajectories', and I'm fearful that by pruning them it will encourage them to grow in an alternate direction.

My thoughts are - what would be the effects of not pruning them? Would they grow, say, 50% less than they would if pruned in the winter? 20%? 10%?

Also, if I were to prune them, where and how much (in terms of length) should I do so?

Please see attached images below, and don't worry, the one with leaves on has dropped them all now. (For those who don't know, that's my Redlove Apple tree )

Firstly: The Redlove

[Garden_Chris]

Secondly: The Discovery





Thirdly: The Fiesta





Thanks for any and all advice!

[ConstantGardener]

Hello Garden Chris! A few questions for you first...

- I notice the trees are by walls/fences.... so are you going to train them? if so into what shape?
- winter pruning stimulates growth, summer pruning slows it down. So pruning now will make your trees grow/mature quicker: with trained fruit you generally prune winter and summer for the first few years while you're forming growth patterns, then go to summer-only pruning once trees are mature.
- how old are the trees? they look like they might have just been planted?

[FB.]

How to prune will depend on what you're trying to achieve, with due consideration given to the soil quality and the rootstock which have to support what you are trying to achieve.

It is not always necessary to prune every year. A good pruning technique uses as few cuts as possible.

If you're able to sketch on the pictures what you want them to become (or carefully describe in words), then it becomes easier to decide on the need for pruning.

At the moment, I don't like the following:
The Discovery has narrow branch angles and is looking like it will become quite straggly, with long, sparse branches.
The Fiesta has a leader which is rather strong and off to one side.

Thinning cuts remove an etire branch, back to its point of origin.
Heading cuts clip the end off a branch.

If the Discovery was mine, I'd use a thinning cut to take out the central leader. Then I'd use a heading cut on each of the remaining two main branches to reduce their length by half.

On the Fiesta, I'd use a thinning cut to remove the dominant leader back to the first junction with the short shoot at the level of the bird box (i.e. remove about half the length from the tip of the leader to the trunk), and, if it tries to re-grow it in an unbalanced proportion to other branches, then pinch-out the shoot tip during the early summer.

Redlove probably doesn't need much major pruning.

On all the trees, I would at least lightly "tip" most of the branches (just prune back to the bud behind the leading bud), to add a little vigour and delay fruiting (helping establishment).

However, what I would do with the trees doesn't necessarily fit with what you want from them.

[Garden_Chris]

Hello Garden Chris! A few questions for you first...

- I notice the trees are by walls/fences.... so are you going to train them? if so into what shape?
- winter pruning stimulates growth, summer pruning slows it down. So pruning now will make your trees grow/mature quicker: with trained fruit you generally prune winter and summer for the first few years while you're forming growth patterns, then go to summer-only pruning once trees are mature.
- how old are the trees? they look like they might have just been planted?

Just for clarity: The Redlove is on M9, the Discovery on M27 and the Fiesta on MM106.

- Firstly, I'm a little torn as to how I want them to be. I believe the Redlove and Discovery will never grow to be of any considerable size - I had a discussion previously with FB about the possibility of training the Redlove into an espalier, but due to it's rootstock it became apparent this would be difficult. As such, I think the best for the Discovery and Redlove is a bush - they wont be able to achieve much else, I guess? If there's another possibility, I'm open to hear it, but I've been lead to believe they would do well as bush varieties.

- All of them are two years old, the Redlove was planted in October, the Discovery and Fiesta in December.

[Garden_Chris]

How to prune will depend on what you're trying to achieve, with due consideration given to the soil quality and the rootstock which have to support what you are trying to achieve.

It is not always necessary to prune every year. A good pruning technique uses as few cuts as possible.

If you're able to sketch on the pictures what you want them to become (or carefully describe in words), then it becomes easier to decide on the need for pruning.

At the moment, I don't like the following:
The Discovery has narrow branch angles and is looking like it will become quite straggly, with long, sparse branches.
The Fiesta has a leader which is rather strong and off to one side.

Thinning cuts remove an etire branch, back to its point of origin.
Heading cuts clip the end off a branch.

If the Discovery was mine, I'd use a thinning cut to take out the central leader. Then I'd use a heading cut on each of the remaining two main branches to reduce their length by half.

On the Fiesta, I'd use a thinning cut to remove the dominant leader back to the first junction with the short shoot at the level of the bird box (i.e. remove about half the length from the tip of the leader to the trunk), and, if it tries to re-grow it in an unbalanced proportion to other branches, then pinch-out the shoot tip during the early summer.

Redlove probably doesn't need much major pruning.

On all the trees, I would at least lightly "tip" most of the branches (just prune back to the bud behind the leading bud), to add a little vigour and delay fruiting (helping establishment).

However, what I would do with the trees doesn't necessarily fit with what you want from them.

Thanks FB, as always your advice is most welcome.

With regards to the Discovery and Redlove, I think I'd like to develop them into Bush varieties.

The Fiesta, well, that's a little more open to interpretation: either develop a one tiered espalier along the fencing panel/wall behind it in both directions or, let it grow into a bush. My only concern here, would be the balancing of the tree. It's branches would all have to lean into my garden as opposed to the neighbours, creating a weight hanging away from the roots, making it liable to potentially tip over.

I would love to train it into an espalier, but at the same time, I feel I lack the know-how to do so - with regards to the timing of pruning, which branches to prune and whether it would come into bearing sooner as a bush anyway.

The soil quality, well, FB, your guess would be better than mine.
It's essentially 50/50 whatever-was-there-before-hand and compost. Last year when I first got into gardening there was a sale on 75 litre compost bags - 4 for a £10, so I bought about £30's worth. Took out some of (what my amateur eye perceived to be) "worse looking" soil, and replaced it with the new compost.

At around 2ft down it's a clay soil.
The soil itself is free draining and doesn't water log, with no stagnating water on the surface.
So I suppose, is Fiesta MM106 capable of producing espaliers with the current conditions? Otherwise, I'd happily let it grow as a bush (I'm sure the neighbours wouldn't complain at some free apples).

[FB.]

You have a major challenge ahead.

I'd just take the tips off the Redlove branches (just the topmost bud).

The Discovery's growth would be better suited to being a half-standard, but, of course, M27 has almost no chance of getting to that size. The long trunk will be difficult to persuade side branches and may also make the tree unstable. The best I can suggest is to hard-prune the top branches and read-up on "nicking and notching" to try to induce branches lower down to form a bush shape. Alternatively, it could be deep-planted to reduce the trunk height. It may "own root" after a few years, but an own-root Discovery would probably be somewhere in the MM106 size range.

The Fiesta has been trained as a bush. To convert to an espalier will require either a low espalier with only a couple of tiers (after removing the leader) or one with an offset upper trunk due to the leader travelling off to the left. If there is a well-placed upwards-facing bud at the base of the leader, it may be possible to remove most of the leader and regenerate an upwards-growing shoot to continue the main stem and build new layers for the espalier in future years.

In summary; I think that you have been a bit hasty in your purchases and the need to "make do" and re-shape what you've got will probably take much longer than it would have done to acquire a few MM106 maidens which are easier to train into exactly the shape you want.

[ConstantGardener]

yep - absolutely, what he said

Though the advice 'you didn't want to start from here' isn't that helpful, it's just sort of true in your case. It also concerns me that you've planted the trees so close to the fences, and in the Fiesta's case, so close to another tree. If you're training them into bush trees they simply don't have room to spread their crowns out and you'll always have an unsatisfactory tree.

Have you got an allotment or similar you can transplant these to where they can do their stuff and become a tree as they were meant to do? Or could you move them into the centre of the garden more? Then you could start again with maidens on a suitable rootstock to train as espaliers against your fences - not only looking gorgeous but producing loads of fruit for the space you have.

It really isn't that difficult to prune espaliers: actually easier, imho, than trying to keep the whims of occasionally wayward bush trees in anything like a pleasing shape!

None of this is probably what you want to hear... sorry. But better to hear now, while the trees are young enough to be moved, than once they're established and causing you problems.

[Garden_Chris]

You have a major challenge ahead.

I'd just take the tips off the Redlove branches (just the topmost bud).

The Discovery's growth would be better suited to being a half-standard, but, of course, M27 has almost no chance of getting to that size. The long trunk will be difficult to persuade side branches and may also make the tree unstable. The best I can suggest is to hard-prune the top branches and read-up on "nicking and notching" to try to induce branches lower down to form a bush shape. Alternatively, it could be deep-planted to reduce the trunk height. It may "own root" after a few years, but an own-root Discovery would probably be somewhere in the MM106 size range.

The Fiesta has been trained as a bush. To convert to an espalier will require either a low espalier with only a couple of tiers (after removing the leader) or one with an offset upper trunk due to the leader travelling off to the left. If there is a well-placed upwards-facing bud at the base of the leader, it may be possible to remove most of the leader and regenerate an upwards-growing shoot to continue the main stem and build new layers for the espalier in future years.

In summary; I think that you have been a bit hasty in your purchases and the need to "make do" and re-shape what you've got will probably take much longer than it would have done to acquire a few MM106 maidens which are easier to train into exactly the shape you want.

With regards to the Discovery M27, although it isn't clear in the picture (and that's my fault), but the "central leader" is actually bending away from the camera in a similar fashion to the right and left branches producing (if you were to look down from a birds eye view) an inverse cone shape. \_l_/ <-- A rough idea of appearance. For reference : http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FWBpZUqbhm...sentation2.jpg

If it would prove difficult (as it appears it would) to produce an espalier from the Fiesta, I'd happily let it grow on as a bush adopting the pruning methods you stated.

Yes, I probably did make the decisions in haste, you're right. I appreciate the advice, it's better to hear honesty now, rather than two or three years down the line after encountering problems.

[Garden_Chris]

yep - absolutely, what he said

Though the advice 'you didn't want to start from here' isn't that helpful, it's just sort of true in your case. It also concerns me that you've planted the trees so close to the fences, and in the Fiesta's case, so close to another tree. If you're training them into bush trees they simply don't have room to spread their crowns out and you'll always have an unsatisfactory tree.

Have you got an allotment or similar you can transplant these to where they can do their stuff and become a tree as they were meant to do? Or could you move them into the centre of the garden more? Then you could start again with maidens on a suitable rootstock to train as espaliers against your fences - not only looking gorgeous but producing loads of fruit for the space you have.

It really isn't that difficult to prune espaliers: actually easier, imho, than trying to keep the whims of occasionally wayward bush trees in anything like a pleasing shape!

None of this is probably what you want to hear... sorry. But better to hear now, while the trees are young enough to be moved, than once they're established and causing you problems.

Sadly, I don't have an allotment or anywhere else where they could go, or towards the centre of the garden.

Irrespective of whether it's what I wanted to hear - it's better to hear honesty than telling a lie and creating fake aspirations of what something will be, so I appreciate it