growing rootstock from seed. HELP NEEDED!

[keepitgreen]

Hi all, i am hoping someone can help me out. I am really interested in having a go at grafting as i have a selection of fruit trees. I have been reading up on the internet and understand a I can grow an m9 root stock from the pip of one of my apples from one of my m9 trees. Is this correct? If not what would you guys recommend for a rootstock? Without spending money if possible. Thanks

[FB.]

Lots of points to make, so I'll put a series of bullet points:

If you grow a pip from one of your M9 trees, it will actually be the offspring of what is grafted on top of the rootstock (say Golden Delicious). It will have no relationship to the M9.

Growing from seed creates a unique variety, with a mixture of its mother's and father's genes.

Seedlings will tend towards the average of the features of their parents, but within a normal distribution from small to large.

Some seedlings will have good disease resistant, while others are sickly.

Some seedlings will prefer certain soil or climate, while disliking certain other soils or climates.

Some seedlings will encourage good quality fruit in whatever is grafted to them, while other seedlings don't.

Seedlings who have both dwarf mother and father tend to have a slightly larger average size than their parents.

Seedlings often crop more lightly and take longer to start cropping than the common rootstocks.

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However, M9 rootstock will often produce root suckers (shoots which emerge from the ground a few inches away from the trunk). These suckers can be carefully dug out, cut off and transplanted (they must have a good piece of root on them and will need good soil to establish). M9 has quite good natural resistance to disease, so should easily be grow-able organically.
A great way to make a fruit tree produce suckers is to prune very hard just as the buds start to swell in early spring, combined with feeding generously and regularly with nitrogen and an adequate, regular water supply.
That's probably why plums are considered to sucker more than most fruit trees, since plums are pruned as they start to come out of dormancy.

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It is also possible to buy ungrafted rootstocks, for a couple of quid each. I would suggest M26 as a near-substitute for M9.
You may also be able to pick-up a M26 tree from a discount store for a few pounds - and re-graft to what you want it to be.

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You could also consider sowing seeds from shop-bought apples. Triploids often don't produce many good pips, so buying a bag of Bramley's or Jonagold (for example) won't yield many good pips, while most of the few half-decent pips you do find in a triploid will often be genetic freaks which don't grow normally.
Apple pips need a "winter chill" to start germination.
Sow a large batch of pips and let nature take its course in eliminating those which are prone to disease or don't like your growing conditions.
Then look at what's left. Some will be large, some small. Choose what you need.

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After spending all this time writing the above comments, would you mind saying why it is that you want to grow a pip, so that the advice could be refined to your needs.

[keepitgreen]

Thank you, the reason I want to grow rootstock from a pip is because that was what I read on google afte entering "how to grow your own rootstock" as a search.
I was unsure about the pip being m9 etc. I did find some rootstock for sale online. I was just hoping I could start practicing my grafting for free before I start buying rootstock. I will look into root suckers though I was not aware you could do that.

thanks a lot!

[FB.]

You will be looking at a multi-year project.
At the very earliest, in the most optimistic scenario, you might have some usable rootstock for grafting in early 2014.

Suckering of fruit trees is a random occurrence.
All you will be doing with the hard pruning and heavy feeding/watering will be increasing the odds of suckers being produced.
Once you have started a rootstock into the suckering habit, it only tends to keep producing more and more as each year passes. Like a medusa: cut off one and three more will grow from deep down in the ground to replace it. But if you leave the suckers, they will get bigger each year, since they have a fast-track route to the supply of nutrients from the roots.

I think that you may be getting into something which you (and many others) won't have the patience to pursue, and you'll end up with your current M9 plants disfigured and suckering like mad to the point where they start to annoy you.

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I suggest that you get hold of - or grow from pips - some rootstock.
The great thing about rootstocks, is that if the graft fails, the rootstock will re-grow a new top so you can re-use it.
If you cleft graft in late winter (about now), you'll know by mid-summer whether the graft is successful.
If the cleft graft fails, you can re-use the rootstock for bud grafting in late summer.
If the bud graft fails, you can re-use the rootstock for cleft grafting in late winter.
.....and on it goes, grafting every six months until it "takes".

[Two_Sheds]

FB's good !

.... and that all explains why good fruit trees cost a few pennies. Lots of skill, time, knowledge and hard work

[chris]

Which is why if his idea for starting that small scale, top quality nursery kicks off we should buy from him

[keepitgreen]

Ok FB. I will collect some pips later and start my journey!

Thanks for your helpfull advice.

[FB.]

Remember that parents influence their offspring, so choose your pip parent wisely, to improve the chances of your seedlings having reasonable disease resistance.

Also bear in mind that many commercially grown apple trees are "tricked" into producing more (or less if the crop is too heavy) fruit than they should, so often fruits are sprayed with hormones to make the tree hold onto the most ideal number of fruits from a quality/quantity balance, even if there are few or no pips. (normally, a tree will drop fruits with the least pips inside).

Golden Delicious usually produces more seeds than most other varieties and is very widely available.

Remember the need for a chill. Depending on how they've been stored in the shop, they may need several weeks in the fridge (below 6'C) before they will come out of dormancy.
Seeds are best separated from the core, as the presence of the core or apple flesh around the pips can inhibit their germination while still attached.