Advice wanted: planting apple & other trees

[DuncanM]

Hi,

I bought my first house last year and as part of the work I'm doing on it I'm turning the garden into a neglected space into something that can produce lots of fruit, veg and have a nice amount of lawn. But without getting into the details of that when I've finished some building work at the back of the garden I will start work on the main bulk and I'd like some advice so I can start planning/organising and buying ready for the end of the year when it will be ready to plant.

I live in Woking, Surrey. There are a few very well established apple, pear and cherry trees in the neighbourhood although no idea what type they are.

Two areas:
Rear garden
I have a 55ft rear south facing garden, with a 6.5 foot fence on the left boundary (so immediately next to the fence gets sun from midday until sunset). I want to turn the 25-30ft closest to the house into a narrow fruit and veg plot. I'm mainly wanting to have as many apple trees as possible up against this fence, but only dwarf/semi-dwarf types, I'd like them in the range of 5-6ft. I was thinking of turning them into double u cordon's (like this: Double U Cordon Apple Tree Lanes Prince Albert | Buy Double U Cordon Apple Trees |) as I like the shape and it would help cover up the fence (not that this is a big reason for planting the trees).

Front garden:
25ft north facing boundary that does get sun for a good number of hours a day (there is a pretty vigorous hedge there at present so I am confident apple trees could grow too).

I'd like a mix of cooking, eating and cider apples - I wouldn't necessarily mind if the cooking/eating apples were multi purpose but I did a bit of research online and read that Kingston Black apples are the best type for cider making - albeit not guaranteed decent crops each year. Also I wouldn't mind a few other types of trees such as pear etc. I'm quite a gardening novice but very willing to learn.

So enough of the waffle above, my questions to this incredibly knowledgeable forum are:
1) Types would you recommend? Mainly I'd like apple trees (but not adverse to an odd pear tree or similar) - I'd like enough cider apples to make 10 or so litres a year (so not too much), the rest can be a mix of cooking, eating and more cider apples.
2) Recommended root stocks for growing in double U cordon to a height of 5-6ft? Soil is extremely sandy but I will add lots of compost/decent soil to the mix by the time I get round to planting
3) How many trees and at what spacing for both the rear (30ft) and front (25ft)? I'd prefer them as close as possible to maximise potential harvest (although I realise too close and this could have the inverse affect).
4) As this is going to form a small border (about 12-18 inches) at most to my lawn, I'd be interested in growing some smaller fruit/veg on the surface if that makes sense? Is this recommended and if so what types of fruit/veg are suitable? I was thinking strawberries for one - but don't think I could manage the produce from 55ft of strawberry plants!

Many thanks,
Duncan

[DuncanM]

Forgot to mention I wouldn't mind 1 or two dwarf cherry trees (if they exist), not so much for the fruit, but for the cuttings so I can use them to smoke food

[veggiechicken]

Hi Duncan and welcome. I don't know much about apple trees but I do know that apple wood is brilliant in smokers!

[FB.]

Firstly, I would check your soil.

How deep is it?
How fertile is it?
What's under the topsoil?

This could have a tremendous impact on what you can/should grow successfully - and also the choice of rootstocks to achieve what you want.
My soil is quite sandy too, and this lack of moisture retention and nutrients makes even vigorous roots into dwarfs. Dwarfs just die in my soil. The very common MM106 rootstock does not grow well in light/sandy soil unless there is adequate rainfall or cool/shaded ground which doesn't dry so easily (it becomes a dwarf; I have a number of MM106's which I've abandoned as too much trouble; I use MM111 and M25 instead).

Just because there are some old trees nearby doesn't mean that all varieties of that type will grow well; the local trees may be rare varieties specially suited to your conditions - or they may be Bramley which tolerates growing in most areas because it is so vigorous that its growth rate can often overcome problems with growing conditions.

But s a general outline, I'd plant bushes on M26/MM106/MM111 (rootstock depending on soil conditions) and underplant these with currants, gooseberries and underplant these with strawberries (especially the shade-tolerant alpine strawberries).

I think you may tire of the work required to keep multiple cordons, espaliers, stepovers and fans in their proper place and shape. I'd just go for low-maintenance bushes.

By underplanting, all the plants will be in competition, so they won't get as large as you might expect. This would only affec fruiting if the soil is of low fertility; otherwise a bit of competition actually increases fruiting.

A study once took some apples on very vigorous seedling roots.
They were planted at various spacings - from about 2m apart to about 6m apart.
The heaviest crops per square metre of ground were achieved from the more closely-spaced trees, which did perfectly well at 2m apart (contrary to the belief that they should have been spaced at 6m apart). Note that dwarf roots do not cope well with competition and will be much reduced in size, vigour and health. Vigorous roots don't care; they're tough and a bit of stress/competition is good for them as that's what they were designed to do in nature.

[DuncanM]

Hi FB,
Many thanks for the thorough response.

The soil is naturally very sandy, however the border where I intend on planting them is currently a concrete path. I've already knocked out 10 feet of this path - its just laid on top of the soil and is only 3 inches thick. I plan to dig out 50% of the sandy soil and enrich with well rotted manure down to about 3-4 feet. Do you recommend I enrich it deeper?

I'm not a particular fan of Gooseberries, so I'll a think about what other types of currants to go for
Any recommendations on types of apples to grow other than Kingston Black? I'd prefer flavour over appearance.

I'll go for 6ft spacing with m26 rootstock, thanks for the advice I was previously going for m27.

[FB.]

I would definitely think twice about M27 as it will only reach that magic 5-6ft size if given perfect growing conditions; excellent soil, regular feeding, watering, and quite possibly spraying.
M26 (or M9) are superior for home-growers. Without chemicals to prevent munching by caterpillars, aphids etc, it is likely that any rootstock will drop down one size class (e.g. MM111 is about the "official" size of MM106, while M26 is about the "official" size of M9).

Although you may plan to replace the soil to 3ft depth, it may be much easier said than done.
Under my sandy soil - about 12-18 inches down - are large pebbles mixed with sand and a trace of chalk.
The large numbers of dense-packed pebbles are a complete spade-stopper and almost impossible to dig through without a JCB.
You might even find that it's pure, plant-toxic chalk 1ft or so below the surface.

It is recommended that fruit trees have 3ft of loamy topsoil, but that's a luxury that many of us can't give.

If you haven't done so already, I suggest you actually explore the soil first, and make detailed plans when you know what you have to work with. Having said that, M26 should be fine; it seems to cope better with drought, wet and slightly alkaline soil than does MM106 which only seems to do well in certain soils.

When it comes to specific varieties, you might want to know that Kingston Black may be difficult to grow organically as it doesn't have much disease resistance; you may be looking at a lot of split and rotten fruits due to the fungal disease called scab. The same is true for many of the shop-type or relatively common varieties.
In many cases, dessert or culinary apples can be used for cider, while many desserts can be picked early for cooking, and many cookers sweeten to eaters after a few months of cool storage.
I now grow ancient rare varieties because I find that they tolerate difficult conditions, neglect, pests and diseases a lot better than the inbred modern commercial rubbish.
Mine are spray-free and trouble-free, although somewhat stunted by the very difficult growing conditions.

[DuncanM]

KB,

I only mentioned M27 as that was what I was going to go for before I read your advice, now I've switched to M26.

I do know what the soil is like down to a depth of about 3ft... Having done quite a lot of work in my garden - to remove a few old unwanted tree/shrubs and I dug the main root bundles out too. As well as having dug foundations for a wood fired oven. The soil gets sandier the deeper you go. At about 2-3ft I could probably sell it as sharp sand. My neighbour went further, having removed an old car port, and digging a soakaway. He said at around 5-7ft it turns quickly to compacted rock.

What are these anciet types you mention?

I can't afford any extra cost (if they do indeed charge extra for rarer types) but if they were a similar price I would like to consider them.

Many thanks,
Duncan

[FB.]

Well, here's a list of what I'm growing - mostly as half-standards on MM111 or M25 at 3-4yd spacing (hopefully I haven't forgotten any). I also have some M9,M26,MM106 and M116 cordons and bushes with additional varieties not listed below.
Many of them are triploids, which tend to be a bit more vigorous, more tolerant of less-than-idel conditions and considerably more disease-resistant, although they present some issues with pollination.
They do well for me, but they may not all do well in other parts of the country. For example: D'Arcy Spice, Norfolk Beefing and Tydeman's Orange enjoy long, hot, sunny, low-rainfall growing seasons (which is what I get). They may not perform so well in cool, dull, damp areas. But your area (Surrey) is also usually mild, but not quite so drought prone.

ArdCairn Russet
Barnack Beauty
Beauty of Bath
Belle de Boskoop (trip)
Coeur de Boeuf (trip)
Court Pendu Plat
D'Arcy Spice
Discovery
Edward VII
First and Last
Gascoyne's Scarlet (trip)
Golden Harvey
Hambledon Deux Ans (trip)
Irish Peach
Jupiter (trip)
Laxton's Epicure
Norfolk Beefing (trip)
Spartan
Tydeman's Late Orange
Winter Majetin

I also have some spares in large barrels, as I am prone to losing trees due to the very difficult growing conditions and due to some root diseases brought-in with a few bad batches from a couple of nurseries. However, most of what I have seem to be established and getting stronger by the year.

If you're planting within a few weeks, you'll probably not be able to get bare-root trees, which are usually cheaper than bulky container-grown trees.
If you are planning to plant from November onwards, you will be able to find bare-root specimens of the rare varieties at not much more - or even the same price as - the common varieties.
I may also be able to provide pieces for grafting your own.

[FB.]

Here's a copy of my most recently updated notes on each variety:

Ard Cairn Russet
Vigour: average growth rate but can get large after many years if unpruned
Resistant to: scab, mildew
Tolerant to: canker
Flowering season: middle
Cropping: good
Fruit ripening: late, holds on quite well
Fruit storage 3-4 months – eater
Fruit quality: good

Barnack Beauty
Vigour: quite vigorous
Resistant to: scab, mildew
Tolerant to: canker, neglect, alkaline soil, chalk soil, sandy soil, infertile soil, shallow soil, dry soil.
Flowering season: middle (part tip bearer)
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: very late, holds on quite well
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: average – better on warm, dry soils.

Beauty of Bath
Vigour: average growth rate but can get quite large after many years if unpruned
Resistant to: scab, mildew
Tolerant to: canker, woolly aphid, neglect
Prone to: insect damage, frost damage, dropping fruit before it is ripe
Flowering season: early (part tip bearer) (good pollinator)
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: very early, drops when ripe
Fruit storage: 1-2 weeks – eater
Fruit quality: average

Belle de Boskoop
Vigour: quite vigorous
Resistant to: scab, mildew, canker
Tolerant to: heavy rainfall, neglect
Flowering season: early (part tip bearer) (triploid; poor pollinator)
Cropping: good
Fruit ripening: late
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: average

Blenheim Orange
Vigour: very vigorous
Resistant to: mildew
Tolerant to: scab, canker, neglect
Flowering season: middle (part tip bearer) (triploid; poor pollinator)
Cropping: variable
Fruit ripening: late
Fruit storage: 3-4 months – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: good

Coeur de Boeuf
Vigour: average, can get quite large after many years if unpruned
Resistant to: scab, mildew
Tolerant to: canker
Flowering: middle (triploid; poor pollinator)
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: late
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: good

Court Pendu Plat
Vigour: quite slow-growing
Resistant to: scab, mildew, late frost at blossom time
Tolerant to: canker, neglect, alkaline soil, chalk soil, sandy soil, infertile soil, shallow soil, dry soil
Flowering: very late
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: very late, holds on well
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – eater
Fruit quality: good

Crawley Beauty
Vigour: average growth rate but soon directs energy to fruit production
Resistant to: scab, mildew, canker, late frost at blossom time, insect damage
Tolerant of: woolly aphid, alkaline soil, chalk soil, infertile soil, shallow soil, dry soil.
Flowering: very late
Cropping: good
Fruit ripening: late, holds on quite well
Fruit storage: 3-4 months – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: below average

D’Arcy Spice
Vigour: very slow growing, can become medium size after many years if unpruned
Resistant to: scab, mildew, canker, bitter pit, frost at blossom time
Tolerant of: woolly aphid, alkaline soil, chalk soil, sandy soil, infertile soil, shallow soil, dry soil, salty air, neglect, insect damage
Flowering: middle (part tip bearer)
Cropping: variable
Fruit ripening: very late, holds on well
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – eater
Fruit quality: good, but needs lots of sun and warmth to ripen properly; even in the South, it is not ready to pick until early November.

Discovery
Vigour: average, can become quite large after many years if unpruned
Resistant to: scab, mildew
Tolerant to: canker, neglect, frost at blossom time, alkaline soil, chalk soil, sandy soil, infertile soil, shallow soil, dry soil
Prone to: insect damage
Flowering: early (part tip bearer) (good pollinator)
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: early, holds on quite well
Fruit storage: 3-4 weeks – eater
Fruit quality: good

Edward VII
Vigour: quite fast growing, but often slows down to medium-vigour
Resistant to: scab, late frost at blossom time
Tolerant of: mildew, canker, neglect
Tolerant of: neglect, alkaline soil, chalk soil, sandy soil, infertile soil, shallow soil
Flowering; late
Cropping: average when well-pollinated, poor without pollinator
Fruit ripening: late
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: good

Epicure (Laxton’s)
Vigour: average growth rate in the early years, but soon stops growing and diverts energy to fruit
Resistant to: scab
Tolerant of: mildew, alkaline soil, chalk soil, sandy soil, infertile soil, shallow soil, dry soil, insect damage
Prone to: canker
Flowering: middle
Cropping: good
Fruit ripening: early, often drops when ripe
Fruit storage: 2-4 weeks – eater
Fruit quality: good

Fiesta (Red Pippin)
Vigour: average
Resistant to: mildew, frost at blossom time, insect damage
Tolerant to: scab, woolly aphid, alkaline soil, chalk soil, sandy soil, infertile soil, shallow soil, dry soil
Prone to: canker in high-rainfall areas or when grown in acid soil, bitter pit
Flowering: middle
Cropping: good
Fruit ripening: late, holds on quite well
Fruit storage: 3-4 months – eater
Fruit quality: average

First and Last
Vigour: average
Resistant to: scab, mildew
Tolerant to: canker, woolly aphid
Flowering: middle
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: late
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: good

Gascoyne’s Scarlet
Vigour: vigorous
Resistant to: mildew, insect damage
Tolerant to: scab, canker, aphids, woolly aphids, neglect, alkaline soil, chalk soil, sandy soil, infertile soil, shallow soil, dry soil
Flowering: middle (part tip) (triploid; poor pollinator)
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: mid, holds on quite well
Fruit storage: 3-4 months – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: average

Hambledon Deux Ans
Vigour: vigorous, can get very large after many years if unpruned
Resistant to: mildew, canker
Tolerant to: scab, neglect, infertile soil, insect damage
Tree has unusually long life expectancy.
Prone to: bitter pit
Flowering: early (part tip) (triploid; poor pollinator)
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: late
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: average


Irish Peach
Vigour: average, can get quite large after many years if unpruned
Resistant to: mildew, woolly aphid
Tolerant to: scab, canker, neglect
Prone to: insect damage
Flowering: very early (part tip) (will not pollinate Discovery or Beauty of Bath)
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: very early, drops when ripe
Fruit storage: 1-2 weeks – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: good

Jupiter
Vigour: quite vigorous
Resistant to: mildew, scab
Tolerant to: canker, woolly aphid, insect damage
Flowering: middle (triploid; poor pollinator)
Cropping: good but can become biennial
Fruit ripening: late
Fruit storage: 3-4 months – eater
Fruit quality: good

Norfolk Beefing
Vigour: quite vigorous
Resistant to: scab, mildew
Tolerant to: canker, alkaline soil, chalky soil, sandy soil, infertile soil, shallow soil, dry soil, insect damage
Flowering: middle (part tip) (triploid; poor pollinator)
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: very late, holds on quite well
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – multi-purpose
Fruit quality: good

Spartan
Vigour: average
Resistant to: mildew, insect damage
Tolerant to; scab, canker, woolly aphid
Flowering: middle (good pollinator)
Cropping: good
Fruit ripening: late, drops when ripe
Fruit storage: 3-4 months – eater
Fruit quality: average

Tydeman’s Late Orange
Vigour: quite vigorous
Resistant to: mildew, scab, frost at blossom time
Tolerant to: canker, aphids, woolly aphids, insect damage
Prone to: wind damage due to thin branches
Flowering; early (part tip)
Cropping: good but can become biennial
Fruit ripening: late, holds on quite well
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – eater
Fruit quality: average

Winter Majetin
Vigour: average growth rate but can get quite large after many years if unpruned
Resistant to: mildew, scab, woolly aphid
Tolerant of: canker, neglect, insect damage
Flowering: late
Cropping: good
Fruit ripening: late
Fruit storage: 4-6 months – cooker
Fruit quality: good

Ancient un-named tree
Vigour: vigorous
Resistant to: mildew, scab, canker
Tolerant of: woolly aphid, alkaline soil, chalk soil, sandy soil, infertile soil, shallow soil, dry soil, neglect
Flowering: middle (possible triploid; possible poor pollinator)
Cropping: average
Fruit ripening: late
Fruit storage: 4-6 months
Fruit quality: good



Note that "insect damage" refers to attacks by wasps, ants, "maggots/worms", earwigs and similar fruit-spoiling pests.
Resistant means usually very few fruit losses to insect damage, while tolerant means only a small amount of fruit is likely to be damaged in most seasons.
In extreme situations, no variety can show complete resistance and a single tree (where pests have no choice what to eat) is more likely to be attacked than a group of trees, where the pests will often prefer to attack one or two, while mostly leaving the other trees alone.

Also note that the above varieties are only half of the tree; they interact with the rootstock when it comes to tolerance of soil conditions.

So with MM106 not tolerant of dry soil, it makes no difference what you put on it if you're trying to grow it in light/dry/sandy soil, because the MM106 part will fail to thrive or be dwarfed.
On the other hand, the rootstock does not have to face above-ground problems such as scab or mildew, which is mostly related to the variety grafted to the roots.
However, it may be that acid soil increases the risk of canker. It may also be that M26 rootstock slightly improves scab resistance, while M25 slightly improves mildew and bitter pit resistance.

For very difficult soil conditions, choose M25, MM111 or M26 rootstock, depending on the size of tree required and the exact nature of the problem.
However, even the vigorous MM111 or M25 will be much reduced in size in poor soils (and dwarfs will die) so consider how much reduction in vigour a poorer soil might cause (e.g. growth may be reduced by half in poor conditions, compared to good conditions).

[DuncanM]

To follow this up... I've purchased the trees very early to take advantage of a 20% discount at Deacons.

Order was as follows:
2 x Kingston BLack
2 x Self Fertile Cox's orange pippin
2 x Tom Putt
1 x Dabinett
1 x Worcester Pearmain

All on M26 rootstock as 1 year whips to be delivered November onwards.

As I have the luxury (read: backbreaking work) of digging out a path and replacing the soil well in advance of where these trees will be placed, in an ideal world what is the BEST type of soil for them?

I only ask as at the bottom of the email from Deacons it contained (amongst other tips):

"Please on no account use any manure or garden compost."

What's the reason for this and what type of soil should I use? (I need to source the soil to fill in the area, so I may as well chose stuff that's going to be good for them.)

Many thanks,
Duncan

[FB.]

Too much compost can be so strong that it actually draws water out of the roots, resulting in drought stress and dieback of the edges of the leaves (known as fertiliser scorch).

Composts and manures, if put into the planting hole, can also discourage the roots from growing into the less fertile native soil.
If preparing a larger area, it would be a good idea to dig in one part compost/manure to two parts native soil. If the soil is not very good (sandy/chalky), you can go for an equal amount of compost/manure into the soil.
Also use an inch of manure or compost as a moisture-retaining mulch late each winter and it will also slowly leach nutrients down into the soil.

However, no matter how good the soil, the varieties you have chosen may not grow well as they don't have much disease resistance.
I suggest reading-up on the varieties you have and consider swapping them for something more disease resistant.
You have also chosen a very variable bunch in terms of their likely mature size.
Tom Putt is vigorous (so will grow more like MM106/MM111), whereas Dabinett is a weak grower (so will grow more like M9/M27). The others will be about typical size for M26.

A good start would be to search each variety on Keepers website:
Keepers Nursery - possibly the largest range of fruit trees and soft fruit plants in the world

[DuncanM]

Well an update for all - it's been long enough! (breaking into 3 posts to allow 11 images)

Firstly excuse all the terrible amounts of crap/building material in the garden, I've been in the process of landscaping the garden for just over a year since I moved in...which included building a brick oven - and given I'd no prior experience it was quite a long ta

Here was the area in my back garden that I was talking about, a 10 meter long, 1.2m wide path, view looking from back of garden towards house:


Concrete path knocked out, railway sleepers put in, filled with top soil (which was slightly on the clay side), and mixed very well with 720 litres of MPC to give an even distribution throughout the entire bed. I also included 2 handfuls of bone meal and mixed thoroughly into the soil that filled the planting hole and underneath the roots.

Deacon's grafted the trees a lot higher than expected, so I planted the rootball deep which (on advice) will give a sturdy root system.



The depth of the soil that was replaced was about 2 feet, which also includes the increase in height of soil from the garden with the sleepers.

[DuncanM]

In order from rear of garden to house. All on M26. 1) Rubinette


2) Dabinett


3) Kingston Black


4) Tom Putt

[DuncanM]

5) Kingston Black


6) Tom Putt


View from house (well shed), to rear or garden, with my brick oven popping it's bottom in. Photo shows trees 5 through 1.


View towards the back again, showing the whole oven and un-finished patio.


One of my trees is almost completely orange (#4, Tom Putt), is it Trentepohlia? and will it be a problem?

Thanks,
Duncan

[orangepippin]

I've come to this late so am not sure what you are intending, but I am guessing you want the trees to grow as espaliers or fans? If so they will need cutting right back - check with the supplier. They should look great in a few years. As noted by FB, you will need to be careful about the size of the Tom Putt. I'm impressed you have a Rubinette, and will be interested to hear if you think the flavour is better than Cox.