ordering fruit trees

[miker2d2]

Thinking of ordering some fruit trees from blackmoor, is it too late to plant these this year? I see it is the last weekend they are taking orders

thinking of 2 of each to go in south faceing garden, will not allow to set fruit this year

Plum Opal Blackmoor Nurseries

Cherry Regina Blackmoor Nurseries

[FB.]

If they're still selling them, you can still plant them on arrival.
Blackmoor usually seem quite quick to ship orders.

[FB.]

Note that dwarfing rootstocks need fertile soil and no competition from other plants growing in their rooting area (the area under the branch spread). Otherwise they may neither grow nor fruit.

I'd also wonder why you want to plant two of each, rather than have a mixture of different varieties, which is better for disease-management purposes in addition to providing an extended cropping season with different flavours and uses.

[Kleftiwallah]

Great admiration for Blackmoor. They won't let you have the trees if they aren't ready or the weather is bad. Cheers, Tony.

[miker2d2]

thanks guys - hear what your'e saying re varieties, i will look for a bit of diversity. i basically want to grow them along the edge of an area that is currenty lawn - will they be ok witnh grass around the base or will i need to clear this? trying to do some quick research after a near impulse buy at the garden centre! will have to order them this weekend.

[FB.]

Dwarf rootstocks will be starved by grass competition.

The minimum size able to compete with grass is:

Apple: M26
Pear: Quince A
Plum: St.Julien A
Cherry: Colt

However, certain varieties are more vigorous than others, so it's not all about the rootstock. Bramley apple, for example, grows about 50% faster than an average apple variety, so therefore basically makes the rootstock behave as if it's one or two size classes larger (e.g. on M26 it behaves like an average variety on MM106 or MM111).
Similarly, Court Pendu Plat apple is slow growing and makes the rootstock behave like one size class smaller (e.g. on M26 it behaves like an average variety on M9).

There's also the rootstock's suitability to the soil depth, fertility, moisture levels, pH and climate to consider. So if the soil is deep and fertile, a dwarf could be grown in grass as the there will be plenty of nutrients for all plants to have their fair share without having to compete for nutrients in a "I can gro roots faster than you" competition (which dwarfs can never win).

[FB.]

Essentially, when growing in grass, you're reducing:

vigorous rootstock to semi-vigorous growth rate

semi-vigorous rootstock to a semi-dwarf growth rate

semi-dwarfing rootstock to a dwarf growth rate

dwarf rootstock to hopelessly slow growth rate (and lack of strength in the roots to supply nutrients to fruits).

[miker2d2]

many thanks FB, you seem to know your stuff!

there is a fence nearby as well so I wouldn't really want anything above 7ft ish in height, cheeky I know but are there any trees from blackmoor you would recommend that could compete with grass and fufill my size criteria? the soil is ok and a good few feet deep, I like most fruits especially plum and cherry, i already have an apple tree out back which crops well,

glad i asked instead of impulse buying - and pollination groups to consider as well!

[FB.]

With good pruning (i.e. not once every decade after the tree is out of control, untidy and diseased!) it is possible to keep even vigorous fruit trees remarkably small.
I've seen oak trees grown as a 3ft hedge.

The trick is the right pruning at the right time of year (summer pruning to devigorate, winter pruning to invigorate). Plus not giving too much nitrogen to over-vigorous trees, or increasing nitrogen to trees which aren't growing fast enough.

Some time soon, I'm going to grow something vigorous, a tip-bearer, on a vigorous rootstock, in a pot, as an upright cordon, to prove the point. Most people's problem is that they plant a tree and don't give it the guidance pruning in its early years. So it grows untidy and unnecessarily large.

My parents-in-law have an old apple tree which they neglected. It's about 4-5m in size, but is no more productive than my 1.5-2m bushes.

As for what I'd recommend....
Well, it's very late in the season, so the choices are a bit limited.

I'd probably choose:
Plum: Opal/St.J.A (ripens July-August)
Plum: Marjorie's Seedling * (ripens Sept)
Pear: Conference QA (ripens September-October)
Pear: Williams QA (ripens August)

They will give a bigger spread of ripening seasons and probably contribute to better pollination as you'll have two different varieties of each.
* However, the Marjories Seedling is quite vigorous; probably 50% more than Opal and maybe a bit more vigour than you would really want (unless you give it the least fertile/shallower/drier area or some tough competition).

But pears in general don't have much disease resistance, although pears are not as common as apples, so there may be no nearby pear trees from which to catch disease. My Conference and Williams never suffer from disease, but pears don't grow well in this area (soil is too dry), so there aren't any trees to pass on any diseases.



Not sure about cherries, since many need a specific (named) pollination partner. A lot of cherries also end up feeding the birds, encouraging poo on the washing, and getting you pelted with pips from the rooftop to the point where you can't sit out in the garden.
In good soil (which you think you have) you may find Colt rootstock to be a bit larger than you're looking for.
So I suppose you could consider the Regina cherry on Gisela rootstock as it should be both manageable and is claimed to be self-fertile. Just keep competition away from it to allow it to keep up with the others. Allow some competition if it grows too strongly and doesn't fruit enough.
You could replace the feisty Marjorie's Seedling with the cherry, since the Opal plum is self-fertile.

[miker2d2]

Many Thanks FB. I think I will go for the, plum opal, pear conferance and the pear williams

[FB.]

The rootstocks and varieties you have chosen sould be just about right for reaching 6-8ft if grown with grass up to the trunk. They ought to manage several inches to 1ft of new growth per year in the early years, which should slow to 3-6 inches per year when mature.
All trees continue to grow slowly during their lifetime (if nothing else, it helps them replace dead, diseased or broken branhces), so although they'll probably be 6-8ft in several years time (when mature), they may be 10ft in 15 years time unless you prune them at least once every couple of years once they have got up to size.

If the soil is good, you may be able to let them fruit this year.

If you plant them in grass, and yet in 2-3 years time they are growing at 1ft or more per year and not showing any signs of fruiting, you could switch to pruning the new shoots very hard in mid-late July - prune them back to about 2-4 buds (usually 2-3 inches in length).
This will cut them back to size and also the "shock" of losing leaves in mid-summer and the consequent loss of sunlight-gathering ability will encourage them to fruit the following year.
Do not fear summer pruning if the tree has adequate vigour; sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

However, weak growing trees must never be "shocked" as it'll probably kill them; they must be growing at 3-6 inches per year in order to tolerate the "shock" treatment.

[miker2d2]

Cheers - i have saved this thread for future reference when caring for my trees, seems the key will be appropriate pruning to keep them to size and health.

[FB.]

Cheers - i have saved this thread for future reference when caring for my trees, seems the key will be appropriate pruning to keep them to size and health.

Indeed.
There may be such a thing as low-maintenance, but there is no such thing as maintenance-free.
That even applies to other garden plants or trees, which, for example, if a large tree of any type (I have a Whitebeam) is left untended, it eventually requires a costly tree surgeon to climb it and bring it under control (or you can take your life in your own hands climbing a tree with a chainsaw - and not to mention the time required and the disposal of big branches).

A 6-8ft bush-tree on M26/QuinceA (and similar medium-vigour roots) should only require an hour's work per year; 20 minutes of mulching in late winter (if the soil needs the nutrients; some soils won't even need mulching) and one or two lots of 20 minutes of pruning, depending on whether they need a summer prune to control size in addition to a light winter prune to shape the tree.

In some soils, and in some seasons, there may not be a need for any work at all in some years, so don't randomly snip bits off just because you feel as if you ought to be doing something.
About half of my trees needed some light pruning this winter to guide them in the right direction, while the other half (having had good training in the past) didn't need any pruning.