Cox apple tree questions

[FB.]

Thanks for that FB. Starting to make sense to me now. So in future I will be looking out for M25 or M111. A local writer that I was looking at said that dwarf would likely just keel over in the conditions we have here.

Our soil is pretty poor. Thin topsoil and lots of shale underneath. We're building it up as much as we can but what we have, is what we have.

If the conditions are challenging, MM111 would be better than M25.
Just because a rootstock has greater vigour (e.g. M25 > MM111), doesn't mean that it copes as well with certain difficult soil conditions.
M25 just relies on its strength to get through difficult times, whereas MM111 relies on being fairly resistant to the challenges of life.
MM111 has partial resistance to many problems, such as woolly aphid, fungal root rots, drought, flooding and winter chills. M25 has no special resistance or tolerance - as I said: it just relies on its strength to try to overcome problems.


What is challenging about your soil? Hot, dry and shallow?

[Feral007]

Baking hot, freezing cold, dry as a bone (unless we get flash flooding) and rocky.

We get all kinds of weather here. And that doesn't take the wombat into account. He hasn't taken any of the new plants out, but I'm waiting. There's not much you can do about him tho.

I think really we are just going to have to put in things and not replace those that don't do well.
I've two apple trees nearer the house and they are doing well. The two plums are ok but newer. The mulberry is struggling. The cherry tree gave up, the almond tree didn't even try.

I'm planning to put in a couple of hazelnuts and see how they go.

[FB.]

Here is a picture of a MM111 rootstock. Note the huge numbers of fine roots which cover a large area and don't miss any opportunity to soak up water and nutrients after spells of dry soil or infertile soil.

[FB.]

Here's a M25 rootstock.
Note that where MM111 (above) has lots of fine roots, the M25 (below) has a modest number of really big, thick roots.

[FB.]

....and here's a sketch I once made, showing the large numbers of small roots and small twigs of MM111, compared to the thicker and less numerous structure of M25.
The rootstock has an influence on the above-ground tree shape, and different scions grafted to a rootstock also have some influence on how the roots grow. D'Arcy Spice, for example, always encourages a massive root system with a tiny tree on top; it puts all its effort into growing a huge root system. On the other hand, the moist-soil-preferring apple Annie Elizabeth tends to encourage a relatively quite small root system which can cause it to struggle in dry soil.

MM111 is "bushy" or "twiggy", whereas M25 is "heavy-structured" and has a rather "open" canopy.

The third sketch shows the sun-blocking problems of letting a larger tree grow into a lollipop, rather than shaping like a mushroom.

[Feral007]

Mmmm I think I'd have to say that I have M25 then. None of those fine roots here.

I have cut back my larger apple trees to try and keep them withing reach, but Jackie French recommends growing the trees really close together and running vines up them as well. She does it to keep the birds on top and the fruit underneath belongs to her. It's really hard trying to get the fruit to grow well, and then to try and keep it is another entirely.

Thanks for that information and the diagrams, makes a lot more sense, although it's still up to the soil and whatever sort of summer we get next.

[FB.]

Mmmm I think I'd have to say that I have M25 then. None of those fine roots here.

I have cut back my larger apple trees to try and keep them withing reach, but Jackie French recommends growing the trees really close together and running vines up them as well. She does it to keep the birds on top and the fruit underneath belongs to her. It's really hard trying to get the fruit to grow well, and then to try and keep it is another entirely.

Thanks for that information and the diagrams, makes a lot more sense, although it's still up to the soil and whatever sort of summer we get next.

Most rootstocks resemble the structure of M25, although as they get more dwarfing, they tend to have fewer major roots - often relying on a single big root.
MM111 is rather unusual with its very fibrous roots. MM111 does also produce a moderate number of thicker roots deeper down (not as much as M25, but similar to MM106), so anchorage is not a problem.


In Australia, you may well have other MM rootstocks, and M789 or M793, which are not available in the UK.
They were all bred several decades ago with the Southern-hemisphere fruit growers in mind, since their orchards were almost destroyed by woolly aphids. Woolly aphids like warm, dry weather. They cause stems to split, canker and rot. In the winter, woolly aphids move down to the roots and do the same to the roots.
Seeding rootstocks and the M-prefix rootstocks (apart from the mistakenly-named M116 which should have been named MM116) are too prone to woolly aphid in many areas where woolly aphids are in epidemic proportions.

[Mark the Bodger]

I have attached a few photographs of the labels that were on the 2 trees. The large label was from the better looking tree and the thin label was from the twiggy looking tree. I don't know if you can tell anything from these as to what root stock they are?

Also I have attached a few photos of what is under the curled up leaves to see if the problem can be clarified for the leaf curl problem whether it is powdery mildew or aphids. on one of the photos you can just see an earwig running away - don't know if this is adding to the problem.

[Mark the Bodger]

and here is the photo that i missed from my last post.

[FB.]

I have attached a few photographs of the labels that were on the 2 trees. The large label was from the better looking tree and the thin label was from the twiggy looking tree. I don't know if you can tell anything from these as to what root stock they are?

Also I have attached a few photos of what is under the curled up leaves to see if the problem can be clarified for the leaf curl problem whether it is powdery mildew or aphids. on one of the photos you can just see an earwig running away - don't know if this is adding to the problem.

Looks more like aphids.

No way to tell the rootstock, but the label says "mini standard fruit tree" which could be just about anything.
However, the word "mini" and the thin trunk makes me wonder whether they're M27 (extremely dwarf) rootstock.
A picture of the grafts might help, as dwarfs tend to have quite mis-shapen grafts, with each dwarf rootstock having a different appearance.
M27 and M9 usually form a lump - like a snake that swallowed a gold ball.
M26 usually has a noticeably wider trunk below the graft than above, although this is often the case with all young trees to some extent due to the rootstock tending to be a year or two older than the scion grafted to it.

[FB.]

Baking hot, freezing cold, dry as a bone (unless we get flash flooding) and rocky.

We get all kinds of weather here. And that doesn't take the wombat into account. He hasn't taken any of the new plants out, but I'm waiting. There's not much you can do about him tho.

I think really we are just going to have to put in things and not replace those that don't do well.
I've two apple trees nearer the house and they are doing well. The two plums are ok but newer. The mulberry is struggling. The cherry tree gave up, the almond tree didn't even try.

I'm planning to put in a couple of hazelnuts and see how they go.

Missed this posting from a few days ago - sorry.

MM111 would be your best option.

[Mark the Bodger]

Thanks FB

I'll try getting rid of those pesky aphids then and keep my fingers crossed that all will be ok.

With regards to the root stocks I have taken a couple of photo's and both have different root stocks which is probably why each tree looks different. The golf ball one is the tree that is not looking as healthy as the other one.

Mark

[FB.]

The middle picture seems to not have a graft - I think you may have buried the graft.
This might eventually result in the lower trunk growing its own roots and rejecting its rootstock. It also poses a risk of crown rot or collar rot getting into the not-fully-healed-over graft.
The "tree" size on its own roots would then be something between M26 and MM111 in size for Cox. For some varieties (such as Bramley) the tree size on its own roots would be enormous; M25 equivalent or even bigger.

The third picture also has the rootstock very close to the ground, with one side of the Cox part touching the soil and at risk of rooting itself at a later time.
Only part of the graft is visible, so it's a bit difficult to tell what shape the graft has taken.

To be honest, you've planted the trees too deep.
The soil also looks rather heavy - perhaps clay, which will also encourage crown and root rots.
There's not much you can do while they're growing because you'll damage the roots and the leaves will fall off. You could, however, carefully move the soil away from the graft - but if you use tools you will damage the lower trunk bark and soil-borne wood-rotting fungi may infect the wounds.

Finally, I also don't like the look of the light brown patches on the lower trunk in the third picture, around the graft. Is it where some chemical or feed has left a residue? Or is it possibly a brewing canker infection which may seal the doom of the tree?

Get a better idea of what the light brown patches are - maybe a closer picture of the brown patches.

[Mark the Bodger]

Thanks FB

It seems I have had a bit of a fail on all counts! - never mind, big learning curve.

I have tried carefully removing some of the soil from the first tree and after going "digging" for around 6 inches i came to the roots and didn't see any "ball" like the second one.

The second one I have carefully dug down a few inches over a large area and have now left and hope it will be all ok.

Finally the light brown patches are due to my own clumsyness... notice that they appear to be the same colour as the fence!! he he

Thanks for all your help again.

Mark

[FB.]

Thanks FB

It seems I have had a bit of a fail on all counts! - never mind, big learning curve.

I have tried carefully removing some of the soil from the first tree and after going "digging" for around 6 inches i came to the roots and didn't see any "ball" like the second one.

The second one I have carefully dug down a few inches over a large area and have now left and hope it will be all ok.

Finally the light brown patches are due to my own clumsyness... notice that they appear to be the same colour as the fence!! he he

Thanks for all your help again.

Mark

I suggest cutting a section from an old bottle or plant pot and putting this around the graft to prevent it getting buried by soil. If it fills with water than you'll have to get rid of it as the wetness will also induce collar rot or canker at the graft.
After a couple more years of good feeding, the graft will be fully healed-over and can then be covered by soil - although at some risk of the scion later growing its own roots and becoming something around M26-MM106 vigour.