Cox apple tree questions

[Mark the Bodger]

Hello,

I have asked a couple of questions on this forum now and have had great response from them so was hoping i would have just as much success with a couple more questions.

I have 2 Cox apple trees bought for me as presents. They both got planted around February time and was expecting a bit more from them.

Have they both got a disease or something as the leaves are curling up, or does this mean they are not getting enough water or feed? - I do water them every other day, is this too much?

Also I would like to make train them into espaliers. are they suitable for this? do I need to cut some of the branches off, any suggestions with this as before would be most welcome as I do like pottering in the garden but most of the time don't quite know what i am doing!

Mark

[FB.]

There are certainly signs of powdery mildew. The signs are small, distorted leaves, with a white powdery coating. The leaves will rapdily spread those white powdery spores across the rest of the plant, as well as killing the shoot on which they grow (or, late in the season, will incorporate themselves into the shoot to reinfect the tree the next year).
On susceptible varieties (such as Cox) it is essential to pinch-out mildewed shoots before they spread through the whole tree.

Curled leaves can also be aphids of various types, but I suspect mildew is the main problme on your tree.

I grow a number of apple seedlings each year from pips. Most die. By far the most common cause of death is overwhelming powdery mildew. But I don't do anything to treat the seedlings becase I prefer to let nature get rid of the weak ones and leave me with the tough ones.

Cox is a very difficult variety to grow, even for professional growers with full spray routines.
It has been grown countrywide for many decades and the diseases have had plenty of time to evolve, so are all well-adapted to attack it. Most of the common varieties have also "lost" their disease resistance due to evolution. More unusual varieties tend to not have diseases which are adapted to attack them, and, when planted, it usually takes the diseases many decades and thousands of trees of teh same type to attack before the diseases evolve efficient ways to get past the disease resistance.
So, for example:
The widely-grown Bramley used to be known for its disease resistance, but now it has only average resistance to canker and is slightly susceptible to scab.
I recently lost an Egremont Russet to canker (killed within a couple of months due to just one massive attack wave in a spell of heavy rain); it is a widely-grown variety which used to have a reputation for resistance to canker.

Incidentally, I have other supposedly-canker-prone varieties (such as Fiesta, Epicure, Spartan, Worcester) which remain unaffected. Clearly the "Egremont" strain of canker is not able to attack other varieties and this "specialisation" is a common feature nowadays, due to the way we grow vast orhcard blocks of the same type of tree, where it is better for a disease to be a "master of one trade" than a "jack of all trades" (i.e. better to specialise and attack one variety severely than to generalise and attack all varieties only slightly).

[Mark the Bodger]

Thanks FB

Sorry if i'm not really understanding, but what should I do now, is there a way in which I could try and get rid of it, like a full spray, if so what with and is it something I can get from the local wilkos or garden centre, is there something that you would recommend.

thanks again for your valued knowledge.

[FB.]

Firstly confirm that it is powdery mildew and not also aphids. A closer picture would confirm this.
If it is powdery mildew, the best treatment is to prune off or pinch-off the affected bits as soon as possible because it will spread very rapidly if left. Your tree(s) may be dead within a year or two if you do not act now.

If the plant is badly affected, it will reduce vigour, so extra fertilising may be required (but the rootstock may be strong enough to handle it: but you don't mention rootstock).

[orangepippin]

With regard to your question about training, I think the trees have both grown beyond the stage where you can train them as espaliers. Espalier training ideally needs to begin with a 1-year tree, which is then cut right back to about 15" - 18" after planting. It is this process which causes the tree to produce vigorous side shoots which can become the first tier, and is then repeated for subsequent tiers. It's almost impossible to produce an espalier with several tiers simultaneously.

However all is not lost. The second tree is already growing as a fan and I think you can go with this by putting in some canes to train the side shoots along. Remove any forward-facing shoots next winter. Try to keep the branches off the fence. I think it will become a very attractive tree.

The first tree is more problematic. The top shoots are taking over, and the shoot on the right is competing to become the leader. It's a bit late to do anything now but it probably needs some pruning next winter to bring it back into balance.

Regarding the general health, the second tree is actually in pretty good shape (for Cox) but it looks like you have aphids in the topmost leaves. Get rid of them ASAP because otherwise you will lose the growing tips of the shoots, which are important for fan-training.

[Feral007]

Well if I hadn't had such a good tip on the cox's orange pippin tree last year I'd be devo!

We have a similar climate here - cold (altho def hotter when it's hot) and a short growing season. But when I was visiting nurseries last year withing 1 1/2 hrs from where we live, the guy from an apple orchard suggested the cox's orange pippin as being good for us. There is a particular snow apple that has been bred just for here, which I'm planning to get my hands on soon,but I have purchased two Cox's and I'm hoping that they will do good. The guy I spoke to (similar but not quite the same) climate said they grown many smaller apples that stay on the tree, as opposed to the two I already have (which did good the first year, but only two apples stayed on the tree the 2nd yr).

My apple growing is a little like my parenting.........plan what you can, stay on your toes, hope for the best, and pray a lot (if you're religious at all, or anyone you know is.)

[FB.]

Well if I hadn't had such a good tip on the cox's orange pippin tree last year I'd be devo!

We have a similar climate here - cold (altho def hotter when it's hot) and a short growing season. But when I was visiting nurseries last year withing 1 1/2 hrs from where we live, the guy from an apple orchard suggested the cox's orange pippin as being good for us. There is a particular snow apple that has been bred just for here, which I'm planning to get my hands on soon,but I have purchased two Cox's and I'm hoping that they will do good. The guy I spoke to (similar but not quite the same) climate said they grown many smaller apples that stay on the tree, as opposed to the two I already have (which did good the first year, but only two apples stayed on the tree the 2nd yr).

My apple growing is a little like my parenting.........plan what you can, stay on your toes, hope for the best, and pray a lot (if you're religious at all, or anyone you know is.)

Cox is troublesome in England because there are so many old diseased trees which spread the disease quickly to other Cox trees.
If Cox isn't grown much in Australia and there aren't many old diseased trees of that type, it may be no more trouble than any other variety. It would be interesting to hear how well it does.
I grow Spartan (a variety common in North America) and it is considered to be rather disease-prone "over there" (especially canker). But "over here" I find Spartan to be trouble-free no matter what weather mother nature throws at it (wet, dry, hot, cold). The only problems are that cool/dull seasons produce slightly metallic tastes in some of the fruits. But for me it is a very healthy and medium-vigour tree.

[Mark the Bodger]

Thank you for answering the espallier question. I will try and make the second tree into a fan arrangement and keep it off the fence like you suggested. Just another point when the fan gets going, which bits do you cut off - if off the main branches small branches come do i cut them off or is that where the next fruit will be (this is really highlighting that i am new to all this!!)

With regards to the first tree, why can't i just cut it right back next spring at 15-18" and start from there? I would really like the trees to go against the fence line so that they don't appear take up as much garden space, and i think they look really good.

thanks again.

[FB.]

Thank you for answering the espallier question. I will try and make the second tree into a fan arrangement and keep it off the fence like you suggested. Just another point when the fan gets going, which bits do you cut off - if off the main branches small branches come do i cut them off or is that where the next fruit will be (this is really highlighting that i am new to all this!!)

With regards to the first tree, why can't i just cut it right back next spring at 15-18" and start from there? I would really like the trees to go against the fence line so that they don't appear take up as much garden space, and i think they look really good.

thanks again.

If your pruning technique is good, you could re-shape the trees to almost anything. The problem is that most people are reactive rather than proactive. Most prefer to occasionally hack at their tree, rather than get up from watching the football to do the necessary pruning to keep the tree in the shape they want.

My preferred method for re-shaping is winter pruning, followed by pinching-out of the tips. The winter pruning will stimulate vigorous growth and some branching, while the pinching-out will further enhance branching and will slow the growth of unwanted branches (which may subsequently turn into fruiting spurs).

If you feel the need to re-shape you could try tying some of the desirable branches now, then I suggest waiting until the tree is dormant before pruning back the less-well-placed main branches each to about four buds. Then when those buds sprout, use pinching just the tips and tying soft shoots to canes to achieve what you want.

However, if your first tree dies (the more sickly-looking one) it may be because it has another problem; the rather small and sparse leaves remind me of a young tree which is infected with crown rot (Phytophthora).
If the rootstock is MM106, it makes it even more likely, since MM106 is hopelessly prone to crown rot.
I've lost so many MM106's to nursery-supplied crown rot in the past (along with MM106 being unable to grow well in light/sandy soils which get rather dry in summer) that I simply don't bother with MM106 any more. MM111 is only slighty more vigorous than MM106, but is much less troublesome: more resistant to disease and tolerant of variable soil moisture. M26 or M116 are slightly less vigorous, more resistant to root disease (except M26 is not resistant to woolly aphid) and are at least as large as MM106 in drier regions.

I have a couple of M116's on trial and have planted them straight into the exact spot where crown-rot MM106's have been removed. The M116's are growing very well, so do not appear to have become infected with the MM106-rot-strain, nor suffering from "replant" disease.
So I recommend M26, M116 or MM111 as near-substitutes for MM106 without the problems which can come with MM106.

If the first tree does have crown rot grumbling away deep below ground, it is incurable and usually comes with the tree from the nursery. The disease takes a few years to really become noticeable and commonly kills trees 2-4 years after planting, just as they start coming into cropping.

[FB.]

.......I will try and make the second tree into a fan arrangement......

I don't recall you mentioning the rootstock at any point.
If it's M27 or M9, you're unlikely to be successful training it into a fan/espalier as the rootstocks aren't vigorous enough except in perfect growing conditions.
Even if they can be given enough vigour, M27 and M9 have brittle roots which can break easily if the tree is not supported and has a lot of topweight, or a lot of weight a long way from the trunk which can allow wind-rocking - such as the long arms of a fan/espalier.

M26 rootstock would be the minimum I'd consider for an espalier/fan, but it is still slightly on the low-vigour end of the scale (but OK for small espaliers/fans).
M26 also has slightly brittle roots (not nearly as bad as M27/M9). M26, if given the chance, will develop a very one-sided root system with one huge root meandering its way a considerable distance through the soil.
This makes the tree more prone to leaning than the bigger M116/MM106/MM111 rootstocks which tend to have more and balanced roots which help anchor the tree better.
A one-sided root system can also encourage somewhat one-sided growth of the canopy.

If anyone reading this has a somewhat one-sided tree, try regular nitrogen-feeding and extra-watering the tree only on the weaker side, in order to attract roots to grow from the base of the trunk into the more fertile soil that the fertiliser boost has created. These new roots would then power growth on that side of the tree, after a year or two.

A few varieties are known for preferring to grow with an unbalanced/one-sided growth, or some with pendulum-like growth (i.e grow one side one season and the other side the next season). Similarly, some varieties tend to branch very freely and evenly, making pruning and training very easy.

On the other hand, if one side of a tree dies, then suspect a problem with the soil or roots on that side of the tree.

[Feral007]

Now I'm not sure if my Granny smith is 'leaning' due to the wind or the root growth. A star picket has it sorted tho. I'd rather it didnt grow much on the other side as the horses will eventually twig what sort of tree it is and then it will be all over red rover.

I'm hoping to get a Snow Apple tree (or two) . Trouble is you're all talking what strains the rootstock etc is and I'm finding that the trees tend to have pretty pictures and name, but not much information on the tags that they have on them.

[FB.]

Hi Feral007

If the exact rootstock name isn't shown, and if the nursery are vague and say "dwarf" you should walk away due to their lack of knowledge. To some people, anything smaller than vigorous seedling rootstock is dwarf. To others a dwarf is suitable only for a pot.
Not only will you not know how big an unlabelled tree might get, but you might also find that it is not well-suited to your soil type or climate: within any country there are many different soil types and climates.

[Feral007]

One of my trees had the rootstock written on, but the others all didn't.

I have two dwarf trees - nectarine/peach. They were the only multigrafted ones at the nursery and I was busting to try multigrafts. Now I'm hearing dwarf is not good. They do say better late than never, but this is not good! I'll just hope for the best then.

[FB.]

One of my trees had the rootstock written on, but the others all didn't.

I have two dwarf trees - nectarine/peach. They were the only multigrafted ones at the nursery and I was busting to try multigrafts. Now I'm hearing dwarf is not good. They do say better late than never, but this is not good! I'll just hope for the best then.

Whether they're any good depends on the exact rootstock and the soil.
As I mentioned earlier: dwarf can be anything, depending on the nursery's opinion.

If a seedling-rootstocked (very vigorous "full size") tree might reach 30ft, then technically a tree which will reach 25ft is a dwarf because it is smaller than the "wild type".
However, in my mind, vigour is roughly as follows:


125% the size of typical average seedling: very vigorous (e.g. apple M25)
100% the size of seedling: vigorous (e.g. apple MM111)
80% the size of seedling: medium vigour (e.g. apple M116 or MM106)
60% the side of seedling: semi-dwarf (e.g. apple M26)
40% the size of seedling: dwarf (e.g. apple M9)
20% the size of seedling: very dwarf (e.g. apple M27)

To some, these may seem a little odd sizing, but, in reality, an average apple seedling is around the MM111 size (and somewhat variable), while M25 is bigger than an average seedling (especially since seedlings can be rather variable in their soil tolerance).

[Feral007]

Thanks for that FB. Starting to make sense to me now. So in future I will be looking out for M25 or M111. A local writer that I was looking at said that dwarf would likely just keel over in the conditions we have here.

Our soil is pretty poor. Thin topsoil and lots of shale underneath. We're building it up as much as we can but what we have, is what we have.