Looking for an apple tree

[FB.]

Thats a shame sounds like the wrong place for a tree. It does get about 3 hours of sun. Would it worth trying a slightly older/bigger tree or is it not worth the risk?

Thanks for all your help!

Bigger trees are much more expensive and often take longer to establish than a small tree which only requires care in its first year. the big trees tend to suffer a lot of root damage when transplanted.
So I would usually recommend a one-year maiden, or at most a two-year-old half-standard.
In any case, you'll be lucky to find a MM111 of a suitable variety, let alone a MM111 which is a few years old.

Given the awkward location, I'd suggest seeing whether you can pick up a cheap Bramley on MM106 (despite what I said earlier) during the late-winter stock clearance or from somewhere like Morrison's, ALDI, LIDL or other discounter.

It'd only cost a about a fiver (the cheapest MM111 would be about £15, plus another £10 postage) and a cheap tree would be less to lose if things didn't go well. But MM106 must be planted on a generous mound to prevent root rot.
I'd suggest, for an MM106, to make a small mound (say six inches high and 4ft across) and stand the Bramley on top (so all the roots are out of the heavy clay) and then build a mound over all of the roots.

Bramley is a monster that is one of the best of the cheap and easy-to-find options for a difficult location.

I wouldn't be surprised if the tree is so vigorous (due to the Bramley bit) that the MM106 rootstock will be able to outgrow wet-soil diseases that would normally kill other trees.

[sammy_roser]

Thanks so much for your advice! I think I will go for a Bramley tree and give it a good mound to sit on. Here's hoping it makes itself a nice little home.

[Acanthus]

From their catalogue, and from talking to them. I have very deep loamy well draining soil here. I bought a collection of 10 maidens:

Winter peach pick October
Egremont russet pick oct/ dec
St Edmunds russet pick oct/ dec
William crump oct/ dec

Saturn August
Pixie October
Discovery
Christmas pear main early
Sunset
Princess

There were different rootstocks to choose from iirc, but can't lay my hands on the catalogue to see what I went for.

[yummersetter]

You may need to think about space for a pollinator for your Bramley. Or an alternative to fruit trees - when I saw your pictures, my first thought was a water feature of some kind.

[FB.]

You may need to think about space for a pollinator for your Bramley. Or an alternative to fruit trees - when I saw your pictures, my first thought was a water feature of some kind.

Hi yummersetter

The funny thing is, in many old books (a hundred years old or more) many of the now-known-to-be-triploids were often listed as self-fertile or part-self-fertile. Some nurseries still list certain recently-discovered-to-be triploids as self-fertile.
I've noticed that many triploids are happy to produce fruit with very few seeds inside or poor quality seeds - sometimes even seedless. Next time you cut open a triploid apple, take a look at the (lack of) quality seeds.
But when I cut open the likes of Discovery, Irish Peach or Scrumptious recently (all diploids), the apples were full of good-sized seeds.

An interesting article on self-fertility of Bramley, Ribston (and other varieties) appeared here:
- DIVERSITY WEBSITE - pollination in english apples -fertility

I'd say that from the data presented a "typical" cross pollination would result in 5-10% of the blossoms setting fruit. Let's say 10% gives a branch-creaking heavy crop, and 5% gives a partial but adequate crop.
My experiences also agree that only one out of every 10 to 20 blossoms on a good-sized mature tree actually matures into a fruit, which would be 5-10% fruit set as per the above "typical" pollination range.
A few specific crosses might give up to 25% pollination (and there would be a heavy June drop to shed the fruit overload).

Bramley, at just a fraction under 5% of flowers pollinated by its own pollen in the study in the link, would probably be listed as partially self-fertile if we didn't know that it was triploid.

[orangepippin]

If you have limited light then cooking apples are generally more successful than eating apples. However another approach is to choose early-season eating apples as these too can usually produce a good crop without full sun. Scrumptious (self-fertil) or Discovery would be good choices.

[FB.]

While we're on the subject of pollination......

As the data shows: not all trees give a good crop when acting as a partner.

There are several reasons:

Some varieties' blossoms prefer or dislike certain weather conditions at flowering time. Too hot or too cold, or too damp or too dry, and the flowers may not develop properly.
This may be why certain varieties don't produce well in certain areas/climates but can be prolific in other areas.

Then there's the amount of pollen that a variety produces. Some varieties produce more flowers per foot of branch, while some produce more pollen per flower. Yet others have a higher or lower germination rate of their pollen, or the pollen has a liking or disliking of certain climates. Studies have suggested that Cox's fertility is particularly badly affected by cool temperatures at blossom time.

Crab apples tend to be excellent pollinators of domestic apples because:
They are not as closely related to domestic apples.
They produce many more blossoms per foot of branch.


Then there's the self-incompatibility gene system, which is intended to reduce self-pollination or inbreeding by destroying pollen which is identified by the tree as from itself, the same variety, or a closely related tree (e.g. Cox and Kidd's Orange Red are not compatible).
Triploids, perhaps, may have a dilution of the self-recognition gene; it's split three ways instead of two in a diploid. If a flower has a fixed amount of resources to destroy "self" or "related" pollen, it would be more effective the fewer types of pollen that it has to identify and destroy.
If I'm a flower and I've got 30 shots at defending against self-pollination, I can deploy 15 to defend against each of the two self-recognition genes in a diploid. But if I'm a triploid I can only deploy ten to defend against the self-recognition in a triploid. So there would appear to be a greater chance of a self or related pollination occurring in a triploid.

[FB.]

If you have limited light then cooking apples are generally more successful than eating apples. However another approach is to choose early-season eating apples as these too can usually produce a good crop without full sun. Scrumptious (self-fertil) or Discovery would be good choices.

My thinking behind Bramley was something tough and vigorous, and not requiring high light levels to thrive.
I'd be concerned about many other varieties on the grounds of them being less vigorous; when the going gets tough, the most vigorous survive.

I would not be surprised to see a Bramley grow through attacks of crown rot, and be able to compete successfully with the nearby tree roots. In addition, being such a tough tree will allow it to grow through attacks by woolly aphids or canker due to the sheltered damp location.

My ideal tree for that spot (based on where it is in the country and on what I can see of the proposed site of planting and the combination of challenges it presents) would be either Irish Peach on MM111, Colonel Vaughan on MM111, or Gascoyne's Scarlet on MM111. Or perhaps two or three of the aforementioned on M26 or M9 as bushes.
I'd also consider a Gravenstein or Tower of Glamis, which may be a bit easier to find but a bit more of an unknown.

But the chances of most people finding my first choice options are very slim - and the cost would be much higher than the easy-to-find varieties which are often cleared at a discount in late winter and early springtime.
The ideal choices would be a graft-to-order with up to two years delay and multiples of the cost.

[arpoet]

I have been following this topic as i too am aiming to plant a cooker in the winter. My soil too is heavy clay, and we are in the cold north, so the advice from FB is great. Thanks to all.
Roger

[FB.]

I have been following this topic as i too am aiming to plant a cooker in the winter. My soil too is heavy clay, and we are in the cold north, so the advice from FB is great. Thanks to all.
Roger

In your higher-rainfall, cooler and less sunny location, I would still recommend the MM111 and possibly M26 rootstocks, but be careful about the varieties recommended because many varieties give by far their best performance in certain areas, while others fail miserably.
I would expect that Buckinghamshire is considerably warmer, sunnier and drier than your location, which may mean that you'll have trouble with poor ripening, poor cropping and disease with some of the varieties I recommended. Different parts of the UK have very different pests and diseases.
Although many authors would have you believe that you can choose which apple to grow, I have found that a lot of apples don't grow or fruit well if grown in the wrong location, and won't remain healthy if put in the wrong location.

Some varieties like it warm, some like it cool. Some like lots of sunshine while others can get sunburn. Some like clay, some like sand/gravel, some like chalk. Some like acid soil, some like neutral soil and some like alkaline soil. Some grow best in poor soil, some require deep fertile soil. Some like heavy rainfall, some like dry summers.
Some regions have more of certain diseases and less of others due to the local climate. Not many varieties can resist all pests and diseases, but some will have just the right balance for the area in which they will be grow.
Get the right variety, on the right rootstock, in the right part of the UK and you'll be delighted. Make the wrong choice in certain areas and you'll be looking at a dead bundle of twigs within a few months.


Only those people blessed with perfect soil and climate can grow whatever they want. The rest of us need to be much more selective if we want healthy, long-lived trees which produce good crops of pest-free fruit without needing any attention.

[sammy_roser]

More great advice it may be possible for me to put a much smaller apple tree elsewhere in the garden. I've been blessed with quite a nice sized garden, for that spot though I did have my heart set on a fairly large apple tree.

[FB.]

More great advice it may be possible for me to put a much smaller apple tree elsewhere in the garden. I've been blessed with quite a nice sized garden, for that spot though I did have my heart set on a fairly large apple tree.

I can send you some scion wood or graft you one during the winter, but it'll be tiny; 4ft tall by half inch wide (like a bamboo cane) by this time next year.
That, I'm afraid, is how baby trees start. Even the mightiest Bramley started life no bigger than a bamboo cane after its first year or two of growth.
Less vigorous varieties or less vigorous rootstocks may only be 2ft tall in their first season.

Unfortunately, because almost everyone wants a Cox, a Bramley or a Victoria plum tree (i.e. they want what they buy in the shops) and have never even heard of "rootstock", the nurseries therefore don't tend to graft many unusual varieties or specialist rootstocks.

I have an idea, though, and will send you a private message in a moment.

[orangepippin]

Unfortunately, because almost everyone wants a Cox, a Bramley or a Victoria plum tree (i.e. they want what they buy in the shops) and have never even heard of "rootstock", the nurseries therefore don't tend to graft many unusual varieties or specialist rootstocks.

Most nurserymen I know have a passionate interest in fruit-growing, and usually don't need much persuasion to take on yet another "rare", "traditional", "local", "heirloom" variety - just because they themselves are interested to try it. However nurseries are also retailers, and any high-street retailer will tell you that if you add a new product to a particular range (e.g. early-season dessert apples) you should also drop one, otherwise you end up with too many products, impossible stock control, and confused customers struggling to make sense of the range. There is something to be said for the Henry Ford approach - you can have any variety you like as long as it is Victoria!

Talking of Victoria, many nurseries would love to sell other varieties, Excalibur or Jubilee or Avalon for example are all potentially better flavoured or easier to grow - but customers insist on Victoria. Similarly with apples, there is a popular view that traditional=good. As a result there is strong demand for the older 19th century apple varieties when actually some of the modern varieties are more productive or have better flavours - and ironically the best modern varieties are often developed from the old classics.