Looking for an apple tree

[sammy_roser]

Hello All! My first offical post here so bare with me if I should of researched this better before posting.

I want to plant an apple tree at the back of my garden but have no idea which would be suitable. The area is around 3m all round with the neighbours fence on two sides, a shed on the other and the rest of the garden kinda curves round, I want to tree to be as large as possible to block out the neighbours and give the cats something to climb.

The soil is clay and gets very very wet during the winter, was also flooded during the really wet weather we've been having.

I don't eat apples but my mum does, I do use the im baking however. I think I need something self-fertile as I don't know of any other apple trees in the area.

Can anyone suggest anything? Will I have to overhaul the area to give it better drainage or will the tree help with sucking up the water?

Many Thanks

[DuncanM]

I'd add a photo off the area of you can, also which direction is the garden facing?
Do you want cookers, cider or eating apples?
Ultimately FB is the daddy but if you add those things above it should help.

[FB.]

Considering the soil and your size requirement, you must be very careful in your choice.

I think you need to look at trees on MM111 rootstock, or posisbly the rather rare M116 rootstock.
It would be ideal if the tree was planted on a mound in order to lift the base of the trunk several inches out of the saturated ground in order to prevent "crown rot" which will eventually kill the tree.
Absolutely DO NOT use the medium-vigour rootstock MM106 (very prone to fungal root diseases - especially in heavy soil) and be careful with the very vigorous M25 as although its vigour can overcome problems, it's of no use if the problems happen too often.
Dwarf rootstocks M27 and M9 will probably not cope well either. The semi-dwarf M26 might - I said might - be OK.

Had you though of planting two bush-trees which will be easier to pick and prune than one big tree, and will give a longer season of ripening?
It'd also deal with the pollination requirement.
Alternatively, for pollination, you could have a big tree flanked (or underplanted) by one or two dwarf trees which would provide pollen.

Also - is your dislike of apples due to the poor quality, not-fully-ripened, hard, sharp and watery specimens being passed-off as apples in supermarkets?

If you were to eat apples, what kind of taste or texture might you be looking for?

Also - just how big is "as large as possible"?

It is normally considered that heavy clay soils will encourage canker (possibly due to the rather low soil pH often found in heavy soils), so I'd avoid any variety known to have issues with canker.

I'd also suggest avoiding most of the common varieties because they tend to be very prone to disease and may not live long unless sprayed - especially where the soil is difficult.

The following varieties are gernally considered to be better able to tolerate heavy clay soils and shouldn't be too disease-prone in your area:

Annie Elizabeth
Belle de Boskoop
Brownlees Russet
Court Pendu Plat
Gladstone
Golden Noble
Grenadier
Lord Derby
Tower of Glamis

The problem will be finding a good supplier offering them on MM111 or M116 rootstock. As I said earlier: other rootstocks could easily fail to thrive and die, and turn out to be a waste of money. I would strongly urge you avoid the temptation to buy a tree on MM106 or other common rootstock (M27, M9 or M25) because the risk of failure is high.

Additionally, only a few of them will make large trees; Court Pendu Plat is quite a slow-grower.

[FB.]

I've had a look around at supplies of MM111:

> Keepers <

A large range of MM111's. Most are more aimed at the Scottish market (including cold, wet soils) and may not perform as well in the usually-warmer and drier conditions of Southern England.

> Blackmoor <

Three pages of apple varieties available, with a small number available on MM111 rootstock randomly scattered through their stocklist.

[sammy_roser]

Thanks for your replies I will try and get a picture of the area over the weekend.

When I say as large as possible I mean for the space and soil, I have an image of my dads tree in mind when I think of one in my garden which is as tall as his house (I realise this will take a long time to grow). I'm not sure if I have enough space and also need to check up on any possible problems with a branch growing over the fence above the neighbours garden?

I have never enjoyed raw apples however enjoy apple juice, baked apples, apples in crumbles that sort of thing. I guess if I was too eat one it would have to be quite sweet, lots of flavour and soft rather then the really hard, crunchy ones I've had before. My dads tree is a cooking apple so whilst I can cook with it I've never eaten it raw for comparison.

I didn't really give much thought to planting two trees as didn't think the space would be big enough, I have planted a plum tree elsewhere in the garden which is one of the varieties which stays very small ideal for picking, its about 7ft tall, I would defiantly want something bigger then this with big trunk and fat branches.

Never heard of under planting before, will have a look into this.

I would be able to plant the tree on a mound, have plenty of spare soil in the garden so not an issue

Will get a photo up tomorrow or Saturday depending on when I get home from work.

[DuncanM]

The law with boundaries (technically) is that should branches hang over onto your neighbours property they are legally allowed to cut off that bit of the tree/bush so long as they throw the chopped limb back into the garden said tree/plant/bush is in.

There are common interpretations though, I wouldnt mind at all of a neighbour wanted to cut a branch off an overhanging tree, but personally I'd feel a bit insulted of they threw the limb back - id expect them to take care of it.

Going even further a friend of mine is in the police and mentioned the other week that they got called out to a place because one neighbour had cut part of a tree off overhanging their garden, the police decided this was a extremely low priority call and effectively binned it - and rightly so.

[FB.]

I think the rule about having to give back anything which was cut off is to protect the tree owner from theft of the fruit, or chopping lumps off someone else's tree to use for firewood.

The tree and the fruit belong to the person whose property it is on, but they can also be liable for damage which the tree may cause.

It's only the likes of evergreen hedges, bushes (and trees such as conifers) which have a limit on their size on boundaries and the size limit varies depending on whether the evergreens block the sun or not. On the North side they never block sun, so are allowed to be quite large. On the South side they can deprive gardens of sun, so are limited to around 2m maximum height unless the neighbour is agreeable.

Since apples are not evergreens, they can virtually be as large as you want. But it would be nice to be sympathetic to your neighbours and if the tree happens to cause structural damage to the neighbours house, they will claim off your insurance.

[FB.]

A thought about a pollinator.....

If you don't plant a pollinator, and no trees are nearby, the fruit set may be low - depending on where the bees may have been in the hours or days before visiting your tree.
But on the plus side, a tree which doesn't fruit will channel the energy into growth, so will get larger.
Fruiting takes a lot of energy, so a tree which is fruiting will grow much more slowly.

You could use this to your advantage by planting a tree without a pollinator, and when it reaches the size you want, you can then add a small tree (perhaps a cordon, small bush or patio tree) which can serve as a pollinator.

[orangepippin]

Just to give a different perspective, how about going for some very dwarfing apple trees on the M27 rootstock?

Advantages:

You could plant several in the space available, which gives you more choice for both you and your Mum, and potentially a spread of crops from August through to October if you choose your varieties carefully.

By planting several trees of different varieties you can be confident there will be no pollination issues.

Also, if one variety has a bad year, the others will probably still be OK - much better than relying on a single tree.

No risk of shading the neighbours since these trees will not grow much higher than 6ft.


Disadvantages:

The trees will need stakes to support them.

Dwarf trees grow best on good soil and benefit from careful watering and feeding. You can't "plant and forget" as you can with more vigorous trees.

[FB.]

Just to give a different perspective, how about going for some very dwarfing apple trees on the M27 rootstock?

I would add to that:
If you like the idea of seven dwarfs, make a raised bed with plenty of compost and there'll be no drainage problems and no nutrient
deficiency problems for the weak-growing dwarf rootstocks.

I think I'd still prefer M9 as a minimum if the soil is good and will remain so with regular mulching/feeding, and go for M26 where the soil's fertility will not be well-maintained due to this rootstock's ability to tolerate more abuse than M27 or M9.

Unless grafted with a vigorous variety, M26 is usually very manageable. My M26's grow several shoots about 1ft per year under heavy fertilisation and watering, or if left to do their own thing, most of the new growth is mostly just a few inches.
Possibly M26 may make the scion slightly less prone to scab or bitter pit but taht's just my suspicion from my experiences.

[Acanthus]

I used adam's apples from talaton plants, Apple Trees, Fruit Trees For Sale, Apple Tree Fruit Tree. got a selection suitable for my area/ soil, and have been really pleased with how well they have done over the last 3 years

[FB.]

I used adam's apples from talaton plants, Apple Trees, Fruit Trees For Sale, Apple Tree Fruit Tree. got a selection suitable for my area/ soil, and have been really pleased with how well they have done over the last 3 years

How do you know the varieties were suitable?

What was sent and what is your soil type?

[sammy_roser]

Here are the photos I promised, you can see the position of the neighbours house, obviously I would like not to risk causing damage to the neighbours foundations.

The back of the house faces SW

[FB.]

There seems to be shade issues from shed, two fences and the potential for the neighbour's trees to overhang and shadow further. I would be cautious of planting eating apples as they may not get enough sun to sweeten them. Cookers or dual-purpose apples would probably be more successful.

I would also think that in a sheltered corner like that, woolly aphids would thrive and could be very destructive to a young tree even if it has a woolly aphid resistant rootstock such as MM111. Woolly aphids cause severe disfigurement of the new shoots, and also causing swellings and splits on old and new shoots which can later become infected with canker or other fungi.

Also the roots of the trees on the other side of the fence will make for strong competition for a baby tree trying to establish. The trees/bushes may also cause some kind of replant disease where the soil is depleted of certain nutrients and where it is infested with fungi and nematodes which attack tree roots.
"Replant disease" as it is called can severely slow the growth of young trees. In some instances it can prevent their estalbishment.


I have a good-sized whitebeam tree and its roots spread at least twice as far as the canopy. Only plants outside of its root spread will grow normally.

[sammy_roser]

Thats a shame sounds like the wrong place for a tree. It does get about 3 hours of sun. Would it worth trying a slightly older/bigger tree or is it not worth the risk?

Thanks for all your help!