A New Orchard

[sugar]

The other problem with having two trees of the same type (especialy common types) in close proximity is that it quadruples the expected incidence of disease, due to the two trees passing the variety-adapted diseases back-and-forth between them, allowing the disease population to multiply up rapidly and being difficult to clear both trees at the same time.

Besides; if you grow something different, your neighbour might give you two "common" Bramley's in exchange for just one of your "rare" but tasty and healthy fruits. Bramley's are everywhere and not worth much as the supply is so great. Some people struggle to give them away.

I fully agree.

I have planted 15 apple trees, not a single one of them is a commercial known or 'common' tree. But every single tree I've planted will give me tastefull apples, without using chemicals.

[FB.]

I fully agree.

I have planted 15 apple trees, not a single one of them is a commercial known or 'common' tree. But every single tree I've planted will give me tastefull apples, without using chemicals.

Yes, the ideal for a healthy spray-free orchard would be:

Only one tree of each type (to limit disease spread).

As many different types as possible (to make it difficult for diseases to adapt and establish as a result of each tree having unique methods of resistance).

No dwarfing rootstocks (these tend to cope less well under pressure, trees can suffer nutrient/health deficiency due to the weak roots, and trees are slower to heal after damage or disease attack).

No common varieties* (common and commercial varieties tend to be more prone to disease).

.

Note that "common" refers to a variety which is (or very recently has been) widely grown in that area. Also note that varieties common in one country are not always common elsewhere, so can perform very well when grown "overseas" (subject to climate tolerances).
Many - especially Europeans or Americans - complain about Gravenstein being rather sickly, but I'd be willing to bet that in the UK it would be very disease resistant because it is not grown much here (and it's a triploid), and the UK-specific apples diseases wouldn't know where to start to make an attack on a Gravenstein.
On the other hand, the UK diseases have seen so many Cox trees that they mastered their attacks on that one a hundred years ago and can now cut through Cox's defences like a hot knife cuts through butter. James Grieve too. Bramley - being triploid - is holding up a bit better, but its resistance is slowly failing as the diseases continue to evolvle better ways to attack it.

[FB.]

It should be added, though, that certain varieties definitely are happier, healthier and more productive in certain soil types and certain climates.
Some like it cold and wet, while others like it hot and dry.
Some like a deep, fertile, moist soil, while others like shallow, infertile, dry soil.

But nowadays almost everybody says "I want to grow xxxxx" rather than "what will perform best in my soil and climate?".

[sugar]

It should be added, though, that certain varieties definitely are happier, healthier and more productive in certain soil types and certain climates.
Some like it cold and wet, while others like it hot and dry.
Some like a deep, fertile, moist soil, while others like shallow, infertile, dry soil.

But nowadays almost everybody says "I want to grow xxxxx" rather than "what will perform best in my soil and climate?".

I'm lucky. A professor of department of agriculture from the University of Gembloux, Belgium (at 20 km of distance from where I live) has been doing a lot of research on fruit trees, and selected through this research a group of disease-resistent trees for our region. It's a set of old, local varieties.

[greenjelly]

I like the idea of having a heritage variety cooking apple, I didnt know such a thing exisited. I will definately investigate this further.

Also I will find the thread about 'triploids'.

Glad to hear the lichens are ok; I've read an article about lichens and they are very ancient plants so I wasnt looking forward to getting rid of those.

[FB.]

I'm lucky.

I'm not.

I learned a lot of lessons the hard way - from experience, trial and lots of errors.
I also paid a bit too much attention to "armchair" fruit growers (i.e. those who write books) only to find their advice was badly wrong for my situation.

Books and websites generally assume that a grower will have good soil, favourable climate and will spray as soon as the slightest blemish is seen on a leaf.
Hessayon's "Fruit Expert" book (probably in most fruit grower's book collecitons in the UK) is particularly written along those lines, and makes it sound as if spraying is essential.
It also states that, as if by magic, a tree on MM106 rootstock will reach 14-18ft at maturity, and will be at full cropping and maturity around 7-8 years after planting.
Heaven help anyone planting a MM111 or M2 (let alone the even-bigger M25) as they'll be up to 25ft in size.

Unfortunately, Hessayon didn't tell that to my MM106's, which mostly remain around 4-6ft in size at age ten. Clearly Hessayon didn't tell that to the local "John Downie" crab apple trees on M25 rootstock, which have reached an average of about 13ft in 20-25 years.

Hessayon also makes light of the problems posed by woolly aphids. But in this area, woolly aphids are in epidemic proportions and cause considerable damage to young shoots - deforming, splitting and eventually breaking, cankering or rotting. Woolly aphid is a crippling pest in this area, and has caused extensive damage to some of the trees I have planted in the past, even when grafted onto "resistant" MM rootstocks.

So my advice to any would-be fruit grower is to use books only as a starting point for ideas, but to ultimately ask a local real-world grower in their area for recommendations on varieties and rootstocks which will do well.

[sugar]

I've been lucky to stumble upon a nursery, growing all its trees organically, giving great advice (a manual of 30 pages).
But I agree there are better ways to learn it from a book (Manuel's english still was rather poor after he learned it from a book)

[yummersetter]

Back to your question . . .

I have started some research as I've never grown fruit trees before and I'm worried that you cant be organic. There seems to be an awful lot of bugs that want to get their mits on your fruit and some pretty horrible chemical treatments to get rid of them.

My question is; is it possible to have heathy trees without using chemicals?

I think the answer is a matter of attitude. When you grow your own unsprayed fruit you learn to be tolerant. You use the 20 per cent of perfect samples as sales, gifts and swaps. You peel your scabby apples and only eat your fruit in a well-lit situation so that you see the enemy before you've eaten half of it. You burn the rotten stuff and give the wormy bits to the birds. That's how the real world of home orchards is.

In fact, if you think about it, it's the produce of those healthy looking, chemically treated, bug and fungus-free trees that I would be avoiding like the plague.

[sugar]

Back to your question . . .

I think the answer is a matter of attitude. When you grow your own unsprayed fruit you learn to be tolerant. You use the 20 per cent of perfect samples as sales, gifts and swaps. You peel your scabby apples and only eat your fruit in a well-lit situation so that you see the enemy before you've eaten half of it. You burn the rotten stuff and give the wormy bits to the birds. That's how the real world of home orchards is.

In fact, if you think about it, it's the produce of those healthy looking, chemically treated, bug and fungus-free trees that I would be avoiding like the plague.

I think that there is no or low added value in growing fruit using pesticides. A producer is better equiped and trained for doing so using the optimal amount of chemicals, at the right time. You can easily purchase those products all year long in the store for little money.

And it's indeed an attitude, but it takes, as FB indicates, some information gathering to be succesfull in growing fruit without those chemicals

[orangepippin]

We dont use chemicals, occassionally some weedkiller on tough weeds and we'd like t establish a meadow of wild flowers around the trees, like a mini orchard.

My question is; is it possible to have heathy trees without using chemicals?

Certainly. Just choose reliable varieties with a track record of disease-resistance. Accept that most of the fruit won't be supermarket "class 1" quality - and as yummersetter says, use the different grades accordingly.

I've been quite impressed with a new disease-resistant apple variety called Rajka this year. It is one of the few varieties to have survived the fungal onslaught of the wet spring and summer, and the apples look very clean - and I don't spray mine. Also Rosette, another new variety - but closely related to the good old Discovery, which is always a wise choice if you don't want to spray. Russets are also worth considering, their skin seems to help keep them disease free, our Egremont Russet tree is doing pretty well this year.

In comparison the apples on my Rubinette trees are generally of poor quality, as this variety is prone to scab and really needs spraying - but I don't. Instead I have planted quite a few trees of this variety, so even if I only get one good apple off each I will still have enough for a few weeks supply!

As others have said, I would not rush to dig out the old trees either, this year has been unusually difficult for fruit trees, with a "perfect storm" of prolonged bad weather right from the blossom season.

[yummersetter]

This thread really shows the different local conditions - I rarely see a woolly aphid here and my (forty-year-old) Cox, recently planted Queen Coxes and James Grieve aren't badly affected by disease or canker despite it being rainy to Noah's Ark levels here in the South West. The orchard may have been sprayed a couple of times in the 60's by my father, but I bet that's all the chemicals its seen in the past century. The really disease ridden (but the best apples when juiced) tree I have is a Laxton's Superb, I've planted another 100 ft away which isn't perfect but not as bad.
Good old-fashioned cookers I grow are Rev Wilkes and Lanes Prince Albert.
Your wild-flowered meadow underplanting plan may have difficulties, as that'll need very poor soil but your fruit trees will need fertile ground.

[FB.]

Back to your question . . .

I think the answer is a matter of attitude. When you grow your own unsprayed fruit you learn to be tolerant. You use the 20 per cent of perfect samples as sales, gifts and swaps. You peel your scabby apples and only eat your fruit in a well-lit situation so that you see the enemy before you've eaten half of it. You burn the rotten stuff and give the wormy bits to the birds. That's how the real world of home orchards is.

In fact, if you think about it, it's the produce of those healthy looking, chemically treated, bug and fungus-free trees that I would be avoiding like the plague.

Good reply.

I'd like to add a little more.

I'd say that pest damage to fruit is generally much worse on the August-September eating apples, and much less on cooking apples.
The late-keeping apples whether cookers, eaters or multi-purpose tend to suffer only very slightly from pest damage.

I would never recommend biting straight into a home-grown fruit - especially not the "windfalls" which tend to drop because a maggot has eaten-out the seeds and caused the fruit to abort. Such fruits are often slightly small, highly coloured and a few weeks early.
I always cut open home-grown fruit to ensure that it's not someone's home. Codling moth larvae are a serious pest here, too, with the warm, mild, dry weather which favours their life cycle.
Certain varities seem to show good resistance, while certain others are always heavily infested to the point where I'm lucky to get a single good apple. However, by letting the codling destroy the entire crop of one tree, it takes the pressure off all the others.
The red-skinned, early eaters such as Discovery, Scrumptious, Worcester, Ellison and similar varieties tend to suffer heavy damage from codling. Green-skinned and thick-skinned eaters, or eaters which colour-up at the last moment tend to suffer much less.
I believe that the long period of time with red pigment in the skin of certain earlies gives off a scent which attracts Codling moths and certainly I see the greatest number of Codling holes in close proximity to the red sunny sides of my Discovery or Scrumptious apples. Such apples are often highly scented - especially on the sunny side. If I can smell the scent, surely the apple-infesting moths can too.

The old, rare types tend to show good resistance to fungal disease, so the fruit doesn't tend to suffer much from scab, which is the main fungal spoilage.
The late-keepers and cookers also seem to better resist brown rot and storage rots better - presumably as a result of the lower sugar and higher acidity making fungal attack difficult; at least until they've sweetened after several months in storage, after which brown rot can become a problem.

[greenjelly]

Thank you for the ideas about old fashioned cookers, I though bramley's were the only type.

I take the point about the wild flower meadow, I think I was thinking of apple trees planted in grass with pigs foraging around (I think I got a bit carried away with the rural idyll bit!)

Anyway I now see that I can have my orchard and still be organic. I have a lot of research to do now. Very interesting about different areas having different conditions and getting different results.

I dont suppose anyone out there lives in South Leciestershire and has any experience to offer with apple trees?

[FB.]

Your wild-flowered meadow underplanting plan may have difficulties, as that'll need very poor soil but your fruit trees will need fertile ground.

The more vigorous rootstocks - especially with vigorous varieties - should be OK in poorer soil. In poor ground a M25 or MM111 will just end up a couple of size classes smaller; equivalent to M26 or M9 in size. In my area, where the soil is poor and penetrating rainfall usually very little, M25 with an average variety is about 3-4m in 10-15 years and 4-5m in 20-25 years. MM106 is half that.

The difficult soil makes very tasty apples, though. The (usual) lack of rainfall and the (usually) mild and sunny climate makes the fruits smaller and much more intensely flavoured. We normally get very mild, sunny, prolonged autumns which brings many of the late-keepers to a perfection that no other region can produce. But apple trees round here need very vigorous rootstocks to cope with the dry infertile soil.

Many of the really old types seem to be good in poor soil too - especially the triploids. Not surprising since our ancestors had to grow the trees in whatever soil they happened to have.

[FB.]

I take the point about the wild flower meadow, I think I was thinking of apple trees planted in grass with pigs foraging around (I think I got a bit carried away with the rural idyll bit!)

Pigs can make quite a mess - and if you want to have animals around fruit trees, you will need tree guards and small fences to keep the animals a few feet away.

M25 rootstock is for full standard trees in average soils.
MM111 is for half standards in average soils.
MM111 will make a standard tree if grafted with a vigorous variety.

MM106 and M116 can make half-standards in good soils. MM106 is fussy and disease-prone though. M116 is very disease resistant and not nearly as fussy about growing conditions.