Planning new orchard in Brittany

[Brit]

I live in Brittany, France and hope that someone can help. The weather here is very similar to Cornwall in the UK. I would really like to plant a new orchard in my garden and have a few ideas but don't know where to start. The area that i'm thinking of is on a slight slope, gets sun all day, isn't waterlogged but does have some pine trees nearby. It's big enough for the root stock M25, so is that the way to go? I would like to have some eaters and cookers but would like each tree to be a different variety. Unfortuneatly I won't be able to taste the different varieties so if anyone can recommend anything that would be great. Lastly can anyone recommend a website that I can order bare-rooted maidens?

[Feral007]

I'm sorry I'm no help at all - but I had to take a second look at that last phrase 'bare-rooted maidens'

I'll be interested to hear what everyone has to say as we have started a fruit forest and will be adding nut trees next, but it's good to see what everyone else is doing

[Nicos]

Hi there- and welcome to the Vine
Could you please put your rough location into your profile? There are quite a few of us Grapes who live 'abroad'- as you will notice!

I don't know much about apple trees, but would suggest you buy local varieties which will be more suited to your soil/weather.
I do know that there is a demand for Bramleys over here- esp with the Brits!. I'd certainly put one on your list!
We have a few apple enthusiasts on here who will certainly be able to help you.

Nice idea!

[FB.]

Hi, Brit.

You may find that it's not a case of "I want", but more a case of "what can I find".
Once you've found what's available, it's a case of looking at your soil in addition to your climate, and selecting varieties which will grow well, and reach the size you want.

So I suggest seeing what you can buy, and digging a large hole to see how deep your topsoil and what is underneath. Also a soil test would be helpful, since certain varieties and rootstocks are more suited to certain soils.

Best of all, is finding someone who actually grows fruit trees within a few miles of you location, and asking them for suggestions. They will be able to save you a lot of time and effort, and may be able to help you wasting money on varieties which will not grow well.

[Brit]

Thanks for the quick responses. Nicos, I have just found how to add my location which is now done. I have looked around locally at the varieties but they are either cider apples or dwarf trees, which isn't what I'm looking for.
I would like to add that I'm looking for various fruit trees to grow and even nut trees, what is/isn't worth growing?
Also, what trees have people found to be disease resistant, as I would like to go organic?
I have tried going to a local nursery but they just seem to buy them in and when asked about disease resistant ones, their ones are all resistant! This is why I'm asking on a forum, for people with experience.

[orangepippin]

Most apple trees can be grown in a "no-spray" regime, you just won't get as much supermarket-grade fruit - but in Britanny you are probably not far from someone with an apple press who can juice the second-grade fruit for you.

Britanny has a long-tradition of apple-growing, and I would start by growing what the locals grow ... but if you want some suggestions of "English" varieties, then the following suggestions might get you started: Discovery, Egremont Russet (or in fact most russets), Fiesta, Katy, Meridian, Rajka, Red Windsor, Spartan, Cornish Gillyflower, Howgate Wonder, Lane's Prince Albert. These all produce good clean apples in most climates, even without spraying to keep the pests away.

I would also try those traditional English staples, Bramley apples and Victoria plums - the French apparently don't have anything similar, but since these are both culinary varieties "par excellence" you should be able to impress your neighbours. However Cox's Orange Pippin may not be successful if your climate is similar to Cornwall, if you hanker after that style of apple then possibly try Sunset or Fiesta instead.

There's a lot to be said for growing dwarf trees, you get more fruit in a smaller amount of space and more quickly - and if you are growing organically then simply having more trees is an important part of the overall productivity of your orchard. For most purposes semi-vigorous trees are probably the best compromise, fairly easy to look after, and still pleasing to look at. M25 is probably best used for cider or cooking apples, unless you enjoy picking apples from a ladder.

[FB.]

Also, what trees have people found to be disease resistant, as I would like to go organic?
I have tried going to a local nursery but they just seem to buy them in and when asked about disease resistant ones, their ones are all resistant! This is why I'm asking on a forum, for people with experience.

The nursery is correct: almost all varieties have partial resistance to most diseases, with a bit of random variation depending on their genetics.
However, the problem comes if a variety is widely grown, or bred from a variety which is widely grown.

The more a variety is grown, the greater the selection pressure on the local disease population to adapt, and the easier it is for a diseased tree to spread its disease to a variety of the same type.

Varieties which are bred from widely grown varieties may have some resistance initially, but since their parents' resistance has usually been overcome by diseases, then the diseases are already halfway there to attacking the new variety.

Therefore rare old varieties - especially triploids - tend to have better disease resistance because nobody much grows them, so there is very little selection pressure on diseases to evolve ways to attack them, and there are very few old trees which can pass the disease back-and-forth.

Therefore, you may actually find that a "disease-prone" English variety actually is very healthy in France because nobody is growing it and therefore the local diseases aren't adapted to attack it.

For example: I grow Belle de Boskoop in the UK. It is completely immune to the common diseases: canker, scab and mildew - not least because it is rare in the UK.
However, on the continent, it can be prone to scab because a lot of people there grow it, and the diseases have adapted and pass back-and-forth between the trees, blown on the wind.
Bramley tends to be the other way around: rather prone to scab in the UK (because it is probably the most common variety grown in the UK orchards and gardens), but it tends to be very disease resistant when grown elsewhere, and was regarded as very disease resistant in England during the 1800's, until the diseases gradually adapted to get past its resistance in the early-1900's.

You might find the following discussion helpful:
Inbreeding/genetic narrowing in modern apple cultivation, DIVERSITY website

[FB.]

My camera isn't very good, but earlier I took the following pictures, which nicely demonstrate the health of more unusal varieties compared to common ones.
It has been the wettest year for at least a hundred years, and fungal diseases don't get much better opportunities to attack than this year.
The first pic is Ashmead's Kernel. The second is Crawley Beauty. The third is Golden Delicious.
Notice the clean, healthy leaves and fruit of CB and AK, compared to the sickly leaves of GD.
The GD also has no fruit this year because it needs lots of potassium in the soil. The CB and AK cope much better with low-fertility soil.

These are just examples; there are many old, rare, disease-resistant varieties out there, some of which are well-adapted for unusual locations, soils or climates.

[Brit]

Thanks for the responses FB. So I will look into varieties that aren't grown here too much and some triploids. Have you ever come accross any suppliers that will send to France?

[FB.]

Thanks for the responses FB. So I will look into varieties that aren't grown here too much and some triploids. Have you ever come accross any suppliers that will send to France?

I'm not sure about who will or won't ship elsewhere in Europe.
But be careful who you buy from because some nurseries sell much larger and healthier trees than others.
Before buying from any nursery, I'd suggest asking members of this forum about the quality of the nursery's stock. Certain UK nurseries have a disease problem with certain rootstocks, but this only becomes apparent a few years after the chemical sprays used in the nursery have worn off.

Rootstock MM106 is especially prone to carrying crown rot; I've had more MM106's die than remain alive today - and those that remain alive don't cope well with soil which dries in summer.
I would never grow MM106 again and I always recommend MM111 or M116 as substitues for MM106; they are close to MM106 size, they are reasonably resistant to disease problems and much less fussy about adequate soil moisture.

M25 is prone to carrying crown rot from some nurseries in wetter parts of the UK.

The best UK nursery by far is Keepers in Kent. They may be a bit more expensive, but the trees are a whole class above anything else I've seen from other nurseries.
If I was buying trees for someone else - such as a community orchard scheme - I'd buy from Keepers.

Link here:
Keepers Nursery UK | Fruit trees for sale | Buy Online | Mail order

.

[orangepippin]

Keepers Nursery do not deliver to France (although I agree with FB's estimation of them). Several English nurseries do deliver to France though - just do a search on Google. Make sure the trees have the EU plant passport.

[FB.]

Keepers Nursery do not deliver to France (although I agree with FB's estimation of them). Several English nurseries do deliver to France though - just do a search on Google. Make sure the trees have the EU plant passport.

Keepers allow collection, though.

[orangepippin]

Keepers allow collection, though.

Yes, and they have an open day on Sept 30th which is well worth visiting.

But strictly speaking if you are taking trees to France, especially an area such as Brittany where there is an important local commercial orchard industry, you should only take trees which are from a certified source and they should have the EU plant passport.

[FB.]

Yes, and they have an open day on Sept 30th which is well worth visiting.

But strictly speaking if you are taking trees to France, especially an area such as Brittany where there is an important local commercial orchard industry, you should only take trees which are from a certified source and they should have the EU plant passport.

If I was a commercial orchardist, I'd rather have someone nearby plant an uncertified tree from Keepers than a certified tree from some of the other nurseries whose stock really is disease-carrying but has been held quiescent by chemicals in the nursery, but which will reactivate the diseases when sprays are stopped.

Some of the UK nurseries who are (or were) permitted to export have actually been the most sickly trees that I've purchased (mostly crown rot). I reckon the inspectors must have had a spot of mud on their glasses or something.

[yummersetter]

Very interesting to have popular suspicions confirmed in the Diversity quote that virtually all supermarket apples have to be sprayed to be viable. It's deeply disturbing when something is perceived to be pure and wholesome, like an apple, but carries traces of hidden polluting substances. You don't trust Nachos in the same way . . . . thank goodness that so many people are now growing their own fruit.

Brit, you could have a look at Fruit Trees for Cornwall - Cornish Apple Trees for more information on the trees that are part of that heritage.