Planning a new Orchard in North West Kent - Apples

[Loudbarker1]

I spent a happy weekend thinking about a new orchard that I will plant, possibly this autumn/winter, but more probably next autumn. I don't yet know exactly where it will go ( I am lucky and could plant it almost anywhere on our farm but this is for pivate use only)) and that will affect the rootstocks etc of course. I will come back and post separately about that, and also whether I will go for cordons. standards, or anythng between) but for the moment I think the necessary information is that the soil is good draining loam, with chalk beneath. I will also post separately for other fruit. Let's just say, for now, that I may well end up with about 40 trees , and they will undoubtedly be neglected from time to time.

I have come up with the following list for apples, taking into accountflavour, storage time my own preferences and a bit of sentemantality , and demands from Mrs Loudbarker who demands particular varieties for cooking (and who am I to complain about that?)



Eaters first
Variety Pollination Date of use Remarks
Langley Pippin V Aug-Sept Earliest
James Grieve III Sept-Oct For the taste
Ellison's Orange III Sept-Oct
Egremont Russett I Oct-Dec
Charles Ross IV Oct- Dec Said to love chalky soil
Cox Orange Pippin III Nov-March Mrs LB's choice
Laxton Superb V Nov-March
Claygate Pearmain V Dec-Feb
Belle de Boscoop II Dec-April
Orleans Reinette VIII Jan-Feb
D'Arcy Spice I Jan-May
Court Pendu Plat IX Jan-April
Sturmer Pippin March -May
Wagener III April-June
May Queen V Jan-May

I am also considering Jonagold, Tyndeman's Late Orange and Laxton's Epicure. Mrs Loudbarker also wants Granny Smith, and Miss Loudbarker wants Pink Lady.

Cookers
Bramley Nov-March For Mrs Loudbarker
Bountiful Bramley replacement and smaller
Monarch Oct-April I had these when I was small
Arthur Turner Sept-Oct Earlier cooker
Crawley Beauty Feb-April
Edward VII Dec-April
Beauty of Kent How could I not in Kent?

The eye opener for me is the spread of keeping times - I suspect my own keeping conitrions will be sub-optimal and therefore achieving my own apples in June is a bit optiminsitc but even so.

All thoughts welcome!

[orangepippin]

A very electic list! I am sure you will add to it. A bit of sentimentality is always a good factor when putting together an orchard.

Pink Lady (Cripps Pink) is not available for sale in the UK, and probably would not ripen - even in Kent.

Granny Smith is an excellent variety when home-grown, and you should be OK in Kent in a good year if you plant it in full sun, but don't expect to pick before November. Granny Smith, along with Golden Delicious (not on your list but perhaps should be), is probably your best bet for storing as long as possible, although you would need to keep them in a proper fridge.

I would also think about buying an apple press, as this is one of the best ways (along with cooking) of dealing with the inevitable surplus. Juice can easily be preserved by freezing.

Looking forward to hearing more of your plans!

[Loudbarker1]

Pink Lady (Cripps Pink) is not available for sale in the UK, and probably would not ripen - even in Kent.

Yes, I thought so. Now I have to explain this to a 4 year old.

We used to grow apples commerically mostly before my time (though I do remember bramleys on the farm, and conference pears, blackcurrents and cherries as well). I am sure we grew some of these varieties.

There will certainly be a press and pasturizer as well, not to mention cider making kit. I understand that cider in Kent was made with eaters and cookers, but not cider apple varieties. There may even (looking a long way out) be a pig. I'm not sure we will invest in a fridge though. Traditional storage in a cool place will have to do. Hence the use of older varieties supposed to keep for a long time without specialist equipment. Our old farm cold store was demolished a fair while ago.

[orangepippin]

I'm not sure we will invest in a fridge though. Traditional storage in a cool place will have to do. Hence the use of older varieties supposed to keep for a long time without specialist equipment. Our old farm cold store was demolished a fair while ago.

I don't think you will keep any apple beyond 6 months without a fridge, but Golden Delicious and Granny Smith would be the ones to try. A colleague reckons Lord Hindlip is the longest-keeping English variety. (Don't be put off by GDs dreadful reputation, it is actually a very good apple when home grown). A problem with "traditional" cold storage is that the weather in September and October - compared to Victorian times - can still be too warm to store apples properly. Cooking and juicing are surer ways to extend the season.

[yummersetter]

I know nothing about growing on a base of chalk, so bear that in mind, but I'd suggest adding Kidd's Orange Red and Sunset to your dessert apple list - Sunset is the right size for a child's apple, sweet and tasty and comes into bearing quickly.
I have a very old Monarch tree that I'd ignored till a couple of years ago, apart from cutting back a 30ft trunk by half. Then I tasted the apples from the new growth, and they were delicious, it had been a hot summer and autumn and the flavour of strawberries was really strong.
We make a lot of juice and pasteurise it, I see that Lidl sometimes have a huge boiler for sale, the same size as our expensive Vigo one that takes 14 bottles. But you're a long way off the problem of preserving your produce.
There's a good book by Roy Genders, out of print but usually cheap second hand, called 'Planting Fruit Trees' which is worth a read before you start. It was written in the 1950s and updated later, so you need to find the latest edition, sometime in the 1970s.

[FB.]

D'Arcy Spice, Norfolk Beefing and Sturmer Pippin (all East Anglian varieties) are not supposed to ripen or be picked until well into November, which requires the classic warm, mild and dry autumn typical of East Anglia.

Their very-late-ripening avoids problems with storage in mild autumns.

They all have very long storage life if ripened properly, but they will ripen to an inferior quality when grown elsewhere, and the trees themselves are happiest and healthiest in a hot, dry climate.

Also consider long-keepers such as: Gooseberry, French Crab, Annie Elizabeth and Hambledon Deux Ans.

[Loudbarker1]

...........Golden Delicious and Granny Smith would be the ones to try. A colleague reckons Lord Hindlip is the longest-keeping English variety. (Don't be put off by GDs dreadful reputation, it is actually a very good apple when home grown). A problem with "traditional" cold storage is that the weather in September and October - compared to Victorian times - can still be too warm to store apples properly. Cooking and juicing are surer ways to extend the season.

I may well add Golden Delicious and Lord Hindlip to the list.

The 1930s "How to grow Fruit Book" I am looking at reckons that May Queen and Sturminster Pippin are typically picked in mid November which on 6 months takes you through to mid May though I appreciate this may well be optimistic. Others on my list (eg Court Pendu Plat) are for picking late October (or so the book says) so should extend a fair way into the new year as well.

[FB.]

Moving onto the chalk subsoil: how deep is the topsoil above it, and how much has the chalk benath increased the pH.

Check the soil first. Don't say "I want", but say "what will do best here?".

Many apples don't like dry, chalky or high-pH soils.
Bramley will grow almost anywhere because its extreme vigour helps it survive - at the price of becoming an enormously oversized tree which puts the fear of god into anyone who thinks about planting an apple tree because of how big they've seen Bramleys. Most varieties are much less vigorous than Bramley.

Pears will grow on chalk or infertile soil if they are on true pear rootstocks such as seedling, Pyrus communis clonal or Pyrodwarf clonal rootstocks.
Quince rootstock - which is the usual for pears due to its dwarfing effect - cannot tolerate chalk nor drought.

[orangepippin]

...Sturmer Pippin ...

I'll second that. I used to get these from an orchard in Hertfordshire, and they have the dense hard flesh typical of a good keeper.

[Loudbarker1]

D'Arcy Spice, Norfolk Beefing and Sturmer Pippin (all East Anglian varieties) are not supposed to ripen or be picked until well into November, which requires the classic warm, mild and dry autumn typical of East Anglia.


They all have very long storage life if ripened properly, but they will ripen to an inferior quality when grown elsewhere, and the trees themselves are happiest and healthiest in a hot, dry climate.

Also consider long-keepers such as: Gooseberry, French Crab, Annie Elizabeth and Hambledon Deux Ans.

My theory is that NW Kent shouldn't be too different from East Anglia climate wise. Time will tell.

Gooseberry, French Crab, Annie Elizabeth and Hambledon Deux Ans all get added to the shortlist.

All suggestions (for long keeping and otherwise) comments and criticisms gratefully received - thank you all and please keep them coming. It owould be useful to have thoughts on the amount of attention a variety can get by with (or more accurately, without). There are quite a few trees here and time, at least for the next 20 years is likely to be fairly short.

[FB.]

My picks for chalk (based on my slightly chalky soil) would include:

* = officially recognised by "renowned experts" on apples as being good for chalk, so very likely to do especially well:

Ashmead's Kernel
Barnack Beauty*
Barnack Orange * (chalk-dependent; will not grow well without chalk)
Belle de Boskoop
Bountiful
Bramley
Charles Ross*
Court Pendu Plat
Crawley Beauty*
Discovery
Edward VII
Egremont Russet
Ellison's Orange
Epicure (Laxton's Epicure)
Fiesta (Red Pippin)*
Gascyone's Scarlet*
Hambledon Deux Ans
Miller's Seedling
Norfolk Beefing
Reverend Wilks
Rosemary Russet
Saint Everard*

[yummersetter]

Charles Ross isn't a keeper - after a couple of weeks of being ripe, it begins to turn mealy. They are big apples, Bramley sized so it's a good fruit diet eating them when they're at their best as three a day will fill you up.
This may be a West Country thing, but I chopped down my Tydemans Late Orange tree as the apples always needed a lot of thinning or the branches would break and they never ripened enough to be tasty - even if picked in November and stored for months they just shrivelled rather than matured. And it takes a lot of exasperation for me to take a tree out!

[Loudbarker1]

Many apples don't like dry, chalky or high-pH soils.
.

This is a bit problematic.

The farm is on the northdowns. In some places topsoil is pretty thin - just a few inches with solid chalk beneath. But I wouldn't look to plant any tree there - thats for the sheep.

Otherwise there is valley silt/loam overlaying flinty gravel perhaps 3 feet below. The chalk is under this. Alternatively on the top of the Downs there is thick, loamy topsoil topsoil on chalk, again perhaps 3 feet thick. (This where the bramleys were).

My mother's garden (right by the river in the valley) has successful apples and pears.

pH varies accross the farm but is surprisingly low (but not acid) given the chalk: we find we have to lime from time to time.

But very good advice to check pH and I will do that.

[yummersetter]

Two predictions - you'll be thinking about this a lot longer than a weekend and you'll end up with (a lot ) more than 40 apple trees

[FB.]

My theory is that NW Kent shouldn't be too different from East Anglia climate wise. Time will tell.

Gooseberry, French Crab, Annie Elizabeth and Hambledon Deux Ans all get added to the shortlist.

All suggestions (for long keeping and otherwise) comments and criticisms gratefully received - thank you all and please keep them coming. It owould be useful to have thoughts on the amount of attention a variety can get by with (or more accurately, without). There are quite a few trees here and time, at least for the next 20 years is likely to be fairly short.

Generally speaking, these factors make for a low-care, healthy tree:


High-vigour rootstock.
High vigour scion.
Triploid.
Rare varieties.
Part-tip-bearers.

->

High-vigour rootstock easily supplies all the tree's needs, unlike dwarfs which can suffer malnutrition due to weak roots.

High-vigour scion can outgrow diseases even if it isn't resistant.

Triploids, with their extra chromosomes, are more liekly to have additional disease-resistance genes.

Rare varieteis are less likely to have strains of disease well-adapted to attack them.

Part-tip-bearers tend to produce some new wood each year, preventing them becoming old, stale and spur-bound.

-

Bramley can be all of the above, except rare - and Bramley trees are known for living for a long time.
Hambledon Deux Ans ticks all of the boxes too, and were once known for living for a very long time and becoming incredibly large "makes a large, long-lasting orchard tree" said Bunyard.

Blenheim Orange ticks all but the "rare" box.