Cooking apple help

[mango man]

Hi i have joined the forum to gain knowledge on apple tree types, and i am after an apple tree to plant of the culinary variety and would like some help advice from the expertise available if possible please. I will try to give as much information as required.

The garden gets full sun but with quite a bit of wind and the soil is free draining loamy sandy type in east yorkshire.

I would be limited to 15ft and got my mead set on a m106 root stock (am i right)? As their is a bramley at the back and it is massive.

Disease restance and suitabillity to the area would also be good.

I would like a cooker with a taste similar to bramley or not too far away if possible but would consider any.

I have been looking at howgate wonder, grenadier, rev wilkes, grandpa buxton and lanes prince albert but really i have not got a clue so any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Adi

[orangepippin]

The varieties you list are all good choices. I would also consider Dumelow's Seedling, one of the parents of Lane's Prince Albert, fairly similar to Bramley. Also Arthur Turner.

I can also vouch that Grenadier does very well in East Yorkshire.

One way to help decide is to think about the season when you want to pick the apples. If you have a nearby Bramley which is a fairly late season variety, then to avoid a glut you might look for an early or mid-season one.

[FB.]

Orangepippin is going to be your best source of information for growing in Yorkshire.

I've also had good results with Grenadier and Rev.Wilks. I would be less enthusiastic about the others from a disease resistance perspective.

I avoid MM106 rootstock like the plague; I find it to be sickly and unpredictable in its mature size.
My "mature" MM106's have only reached about 5ft, whereas Orangepippin's reach three times that size. If your soil is fertile and moisture-retentive (but not waterlogged) then MM106 can be a superb performer. But if your soil dries in summer, or is on the heavy side, MM106 may fail to grow or die from fungal root rots.

The M116 or MM111 rootstocks would be vastly preferable as they are much healthier and more predictable in the mature tree size. However, they are not nearly as easy to find as MM106, which is the default apple rootstock in the last few decades.

If the variety you plan to grow is quite slow-growing (which applies to Lane's Prince Albert), you may want to consider the more vigorous M25 rootstock to add a bit more vigour to make it the same size as other varieties on MM106/MM111.

However, "up North" the conditions are generally cooler, which may limit M25's vigour.
I find that in warm years my M25's grow very strongly, but in cold years (like this one) they barely grow at all despite having plenty of rain.
It also tends to grow late into winter, so can suffer freeze damage and subsequent fungal attacks in the damaged wood.
M25 is also used in South Africa, which perhaps confirms its preference for warm soils.

MM106, however, has done much better in this cool, damp year (normally it's hot, dry and sunny here). In fact, my MM106's may well have grown more than my M25's this year - about 1ft of new growth for both. Normally my MM106's will not grow at all and despite low rainfall, the M25's would romp along at 2ft+ of new growth.

MM111, however, seems to be very consistent in its performance across a broad range of soils and climates.

[mango man]

Tnx for the replies it seems like it varies to which tree is suited to your garden upon your geographical location more than i thought. The bramley is not i my yard it's a neighbours tree i have a m26 triple cooker growing ok but not loads of apples, and three ballerena trees doing ok. I need a bigger tree!

Orangepippin i am 20 miles south of you and at roughly sea level but not on the coast and in fertile soil. What height do you get from a mm106 or is it dependant upon the tree as i read some trees rev wilks, lanes prince albert and grenadier are small and compact again is this dependant on area as fb's m106's are very small?

The tree is going to be a screen from the bugalow at the rear as well as for the fruit.

What height do get from your grenadier or above trees? Would a m25 with a known compact tree still only do 15ft?

Does the disease resistance vary with location within the uk too as i read alot of contradictions in books?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks for the replies so far.

[FB.]

Tnx for the replies it seems like it varies to which tree is suited to your garden upon your geographical location more than i thought. The bramley is not i my yard it's a neighbours tree i have a m26 triple cooker growing ok but not loads of apples, and three ballerena trees doing ok. I need a bigger tree!

Orangepippin i am 20 miles south of you and at roughly sea level but not on the coast and in fertile soil. What height do you get from a mm106 or is it dependant upon the tree as i read some trees rev wilks, lanes prince albert and grenadier are small and compact again is this dependant on area as fb's m106's are very small?

The tree is going to be a screen from the bugalow at the rear as well as for the fruit.

What height do get from your grenadier or above trees? Would a m25 with a known compact tree still only do 15ft?

Does the disease resistance vary with location within the uk too as i read alot of contradictions in books?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks for the replies so far.

MM106 is basically a very thirsty rootstock, which is also slow to adapt if the soil conditions change.
It needs constant soil conditions and especially a regular water supply, or soil which holds moisture well. But being disease-prone, any waterlogging will put it at high risk of fungi attacking the roots and killing the tree.

The reason MM106 is small in my area is because the rainfall is usually quite low, and the soil is quite shallow and quite sandy, so tends to dry quickly, and can remain dry for months in summer. MM106 doesn't cope well with changing soil conditions.

MM111's potential size is only a little larger than MM106 (when grown in commercial orchards), but MM111 is much more disease resistant and much more tolerant of a wide range of soil conditions, and adapts quickly to changes in the soil.
My MM111's will carry on growing fairly normally through a drought, even after my more-vigorous M25 trees can no longer keep growing.

M25 is usually a bit larger than MM111 and quite a bit larger than MM106, but M25, as I mentioned earlier, grows much slower than you'd expect in cooler climates.
So I suppose you could say that M25 is climate-fussy (grows best with warmth), while MM106 is soil-fussy (grows best in damp soil).
MM111 doesn't seem to have either problem.

To a large extent, the size of a tree depends on how it is pruned, trained and allowed to crop. Many people plant a tree and never prune it - then complain that it is quite large. Yet those same people will prune their lawn, prune their roses and prune their hedges on a regular basis.

I think that your best choice would be MM111, with , possibly, MM106 as second choice. I would see what Orangepippin thinks as he's local to you and knows the soil and climate.

Disease resistance will vary to some extent with the location, but some varieties seem to have proven resistance to most problems in most locations. Grenadier being one of those varieties. Note that a whole tree of Grenadier apples may be a lot more than you can use before they go off.


Some locations see more of certain diseases than others.
I see a lot of mildew and woolly aphid - both problems of warm, dry locations.
Western areas of the UK see more scab and canker - both problems of wet locations.
But all locations are at risk of all diseases, depending on the season.

[FB.]

Have you tried the fruit tree size estimator link which is in my signature, below my posts?

You imply that your soil quality is probably above average.

Your rainfall is probably either normal, or slightly dry.

Your length of growing season is probably normal.

The vigour of Grenadier is slightly small.

The rootstock is whatever you please.

So you'd be looking at a M25 Grenadier reaching about 5m. MM111 about 4m. MM106 about 3.5m..........in theory, and in the absence of experience with your soil.

[orangepippin]

My oldest tree is a 10-year old Kidd's Orange Red on MM106, which is about 18ft (although this variety is known for its upright growth). I also have a very productive Katy on M9 of about 12ft.

If you have reasonable soil and are out of the wind from the Vale of York then East Yorkshire is a pretty good climate for apple trees - fairly dry, but still plenty of rainfall, and reasonable sunlight levels (albeit not this year!) so you can expect fairly large trees on any given rootstock.

[yummersetter]

You may have a surprise coming with your KOR, orangepippin! Mine was planted in 1990 and now looks exactly like a small weeping willow, about 12ft high and branches down to the ground. It was like the Olympic flame in the closing ceremony, all those tall upright branches slowly bent over with the weight of fruit over the past few years and cascaded down to the grass.

[FB.]

You may have a surprise coming with your KOR, orangepippin! Mine was planted in 1990 and now looks exactly like a small weeping willow, about 12ft high and branches down to the ground. It was like the Olympic flame in the closing ceremony, all those tall upright branches slowly bent over with the weight of fruit over the past few years and cascaded down to the grass.

Out of interest, which rootstock is your KOR?

There seems to be some rootstock influence on the above-ground growth habit, and also a scion influence on rootstock development.

MM111 tends to encourage an upright "lollipop shape", fairly dense/twiggy, slender-structured tree, but with the ends of the branches drooping because the branches tend to be quite thin. Clearly the dense fibrous rooting habit (which gives it its drought resistance) influences dense shoots.

M25 tends to encourage a spreading "mushroom shape", open/slightly sparse tree with thick strong branches. Its roots are the same: a low to moderate number of very thick roots travelling quite long distances.

MM106 is are somewhere in between, and I think that MM106 tends to make the nicest-shaped tree - if you can grow it where the soil moisture is adequate and doesn't fluctuate too much. It isn't so bothered about lack of fertility; it just doesn't like changing soil moisture conditions and doesn't like light soils.

M116 seems to want to be a bush. It seem to like a very short, very thick trunk, with long-reaching, arching, primary branches with medium to fairly high density of twigs coming from them. It continually wants to sprout side branches low to the ground.
It therefore may need a little more pruning in the early years to guide it.

MM111 mother trees can be awkward to find graftwood of satisfactory thickness.

[orangepippin]

Yes, I can exactly see how that could happen ... but it is what old nurserymen call a "shy cropper", and in my case the weight of apples is never enough to load the branches. It is certainly one of the easiest apple trees to identify (along with its wispy leaves and very pretty blossom).

I agree with you that there are never many issues with KOR, the fruit is always fairly clean, albeit rather lumpy. They ripen very late here, towards the end of October. The flavour is excellent. I grew up with this variety so to me it has always been the definitive "English" apple although of course it is half-American, and developed in New Zealand.

Although its genetics are all "big six" I've never been able to find out whether the American half was the original Delicious or its sport Red Delicious. I think probably the former. In any case Delicious / Red Delicious is resistant to most of the major apple diseases, and clearly some of that resistance has been inherited by KOR. For English / Cox purists, there's only the faintest hint of Delicious in the flavour of KOR - it is almost entirely Cox. Not really a cooking apple though, but like most Cox varieties the juice is very good and sweet.

[FB.]

it is what old nurserymen call a "shy cropper", and in my case the weight of apples is never enough to load the branches.

Is it shy due to lack of blossom, or due to not many flowers setting fruit, or a heavy June drop?
What is/are your pollinator(s)?

I suspect its shyness is why it has got so large. As I'm sure you're aware: cropping dramatically reduces vigour.

Is it possible that its flowers have a higher optimum pollination temperature than your spring climate? I'm not talking frost damage, but more along the lines of optimum temperature in the same way as M25 rootstock grows best in a warm soil.
Many commentators consider KOR to be a very heavy cropper, but none of them are in Yorkshire.

When you first mentioned to me that you had a KOR, I thought "that's a bit exotic for Yorkshire!" given its American Delicious (hot-climate-loving) ancestry.

An example of local climate influences are my Fiesta and Laxton's Epicure.
Most people regard them to be fairly small, compact trees - especially "up North" where it is cooler.
But both have US varieties as parents (Idaho-Red and Wealthy), while their other parent is Cox, which also prefers a warm climate.
I suspect they need warmer temperatures than much of the UK can provide.

I find both to be massively vigorous in my (usually) warm, sunny climate; Bramley's step aside because the Epicure's coming through!

Met Office weather data here:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/...ukmapavge.html

/

[yummersetter]

I'd have to look up the rootstock, 22 years is a long time to remember. I tried to get the 1990 order of 20 varieties on M25 but, back then, there wasn't the supply of non-standard fruit trees there is now, so in some cases I had to compromise and get another, probably 111. I'll put some pictures up on my own thread soon, its such a striking tree, my favourite in that orchard..

Edited to add - always a good cropper, except this year when, along with others, its a third of the usual amount. There's usually about 4 large wheelbarrows full of apples the best of which keep well till February, the rest make my favourite apple juice.

[orangepippin]

I would describe KOR as a reliable cropper, but not a heavy cropper. Pollination is not an issue here, either in terms of weather (spring is usually good) or other varieties around. It's also grown in a local orchard where I believe the performance is similar. It has a very definite tendency to produce long vertical shoots which I think is the essence of its shy cropping, and is probably the reason it has not taken off as a commercial variety (along with the rather odd-shaped fruit). When it was not so big I successfully tied down a lot of the branches to encourage it to spread a bit - these obviously have most of the fruit now. I put the size down to the MM106 rootstock and the soil / climate, and the variety itself is perhaps a shade more vigorous than "average vigour".

The Delicious influence is certainly there in the ripening period, it is definitely a late variety, fortunately we often have nice weather here in September / October. Many nurseries recommend it for northern Britain but I think you have to qualify that by saying that it needs a long ripening time, and I suspect East Yorkshire is near to its practical limit.

Sorry for the diversion, KOR is not a cooking apple (as per the original post) - however as mentioned, it is good for juice.

[mango man]

Thanks for all the replies i have got a little more to think about after reading the posts.
The grenadier does not keep long enough for what i would like but the rev wilks, lanes prince albert, dumelows seedling and arthur turner are looking good.

What is the difference between, beside age?

1yr bare root mm106 bare root

2yr bush tree mm106 bare root

2yr half standard mm106 bare root

Is the half standard grafted higher up on alonger stem than the bush?

Thanks in advance

[FB.]

A one-year bare-root maiden will be a single-stemmed plant, about 3-4ft tall.

A 2yr bush will be a year older than a maiden, and have side branches. But having been pruned as a bush, these branches will be 0.5-0.75m from the ground.

A 2yr half-standard will also be a year older than a maiden, and have side branches as per a bush, but these branches will be about 1m-1.25m from the ground.

MM106 is not usually considered to have adequate roots to feed and anchor a "full standard" tree with a 1.5-1.75m trunk.

For a full standard tree with 1.5-1.75m trunk, you'd be better with MM111 or M25.