Apple and plum advice please. Disease?

[Randommoose]

Hello,

I've just moved into a new house in August and there is an apple tree and a pear tree here. They both look rather poor and I am considering getting rid of them. This winter I will be planting a load of new fruit trees. I would like advice about whether to remove the trees or if it worth keeping them and caring for them. The house has been empty for 3 years so they might not have been pruned in that time.

The soil here is clay-loam. It has been quite wet this year and that end of the garden is a bit wet (not squishing) because is is quite shaded on the ground. The fence they are against is south facing but due to a west facing hedge and wall and some overgrown stuff just near them, they are a bit shaded. The trees had a load of brambles growing in them which I have cut out.

They both appear to be own root, not grafted, though the apple trunk is in such a state I am not quite sure. The apple tree has given about 8 apples, most of which have split or been eaten by insects (snails/slugs?). I have eaten one, it was ok flavour, not great, bit of a unusual tang, very dry flesh. They are a yellowy green russet. Leaves on the tree are quite yellowed (even in August) with lots of black spots. The trunk and branches have various burr knots, split bark. The trunk might have crown rot/canker, I'm not sure.

The pear tree has very bad black spotting/patching on the leaves and the leaves are quite yellowed. It produced one normal pear and one deformed small pear which was all twisted and lumpy. Both were yellow/green and russet. The slugs or snails got them before me! The bark is very cracked.

In the photos, I know the leaves will be getting worse now because of autumn, but they were this bad in August too.

This is the link to the album with all the apple and plum tree photos in.
Apple and plum tree pictures by Randommoose - Photobucket

Please could you offer any advice about what disease it might be, if the trees are worth rescuing etc?

Thank you very much
Randommoose

[Cidermaker]

I'd try to treat and save.

[orangepippin]

Normally I would say in this situation you should pull out the old trees because they will be a reservoir of diseases and pests which will then happily move over to your new trees and infect them too.

However on this occasion I think you could perhaps give these trees the benefit of the doubt. They both look fairly healthy for the time of year, and this has been such a dreadful wet spring and summer that most fruit trees are looking unhappy.

[FB.]

As above: I'd give them another year.
Bear in mind that some areas are very difficult to grow certain types of fruit tree, so it may be that you'll be removing something which can cope with adverse conditions only to replace it by a variety that doesn't do so well.
In my area, for example, most trees are Bramley. There's a reason for that: the growing conditions are so awful that not much else will survive. For many in my area, it's better to have a tatty diseased old Bramley than nothing at all!

The picture of the base of the apple tree just looks like a graft union chnaging from soft young wood to older hardened wood. I believe it to be MM106 rootstock which has sent out some airborne roots (known as burr knots).

It's not suprising for most trees to look messy at this time of year - they are scrapping their leaves ready for winter. The leaves will be mostly worn out - tattered (and perhaps some disease after an extremely poor, wet summer).

The pictures show trees which are heading strongly upwards - they will not be particularly fruitful and will become very large if their upward growth is not checked. Once the leaves have fallen, cut out a lot of the crowded, upright shoots.
Next summer (about July) consider cutting out new shoots which have tried to grow upwards to keep the vigour under control and improve fruit quality.

[Randommoose]

Thank you very much for the advice.

We are not very keen to keep the pear as neither of us like pears so we could use the space for something else that we do like!

There are a wide variety of apple trees around this area and the people I have spoken to locally say theirs grow well in general so hopefully we won't be stuck to one variety. With the apple tree we may well keep it and see if some gradual good pruning and maybe tying down some branches helps. If we do that, we'll give it a few years to see if it improves. I just didn't like the taste of the apples (mainly as so dry) so am not convinced it is worth saving it if I still don't like the taste.

I will continue to think about it. Thank you very much for the advice. I will post at some point soon to get advice on the plan for new trees but I am still working out some details and measurements.

Randommoose

[FB.]

Did you pick the apples at the right time (when?). Some of the early and mid-season apples remain hard and acid right up to the last day before they ripen - best left as long as possible on the tree, and often the flavour improves if left outside on a sunny bench or wall (assuming no birds are pecking them).
It's amazing what a couple of weeks on a sunny wall in autumn will do to boost an apple's flavour and sweeten them.

Perhaps the apples were late-keepers? Some varieties are picked and then stored in sacks for a few months. It's the only way our ancestors could enjoy fresh fruit. Many of the hard/acid types are virtually immune to pests too (for good reason).
The sweet, tasty, colourful, soft-fleshed eating apples don't usually get to ripen properly before the maggots, wasps and blackbirds have taken them all. Be careful what you wish for because you could be jumping from the frying pan to the fire!

Perhaps the apples are cookers (some of which gradually sweeten to become eaters). My Blenheims were like that this year.

Or perhaps the lack of sun this year spoiled the crop. Many varieties will be sub-standard if the weather is poor - and in many areas it's not been as poor as 2012 since records began.

[Randommoose]

Hi,
The apples were ripe and sweet enough so it isn't that. It is just they tasted quite dry, not at all juicy. I have just had that big split one in the photos and it is less dry than the small ones so maybe the dryness is from having a poor year? The tree was partially covered in brambles and shaded by an overgrown area so might not have got much sun down on the bottom branches. The fruit was all on the bottom branches.

They started falling about 3 weeks ago and the last one (the one I just ate) I took off a few days ago.

Randommoose

[FB.]

If the tree was significantly shaded then it would spoil the fruit quality.

But if it's lack of juice; I don't see that improving because it's been a wet year!
Most soft fruits (blackberries, raspberries) are not much more than bags of water for many people this year.
One of my patches of raspberries had their first flowers of the season a couple of weeks ago, during a mild autumn spell which was warmer and sunnier than the summer that never was.

[FB.]

If you remove any of the trees, bear in mind that their roots will have depleted the soil, and there will be a variety of pests and diseases (nematodes and fungi) built up over the years which the mature tree is big enough to live with, but a young tree may be too weak to cope with - very slow to establish or possibly simply dying.
This is known as "replant disease". It is particularly severe if (say) a MM106 rootstock tree is replaced with another MM106 rootstock tree. Other different rootstocks (but not dwarfs) will suffer less from replant as they're genetically different and will keep the pests and diseases at bay long enough to establish a new tree.
I've successfully planted M116's straight into the hole that a crown-rot-killed MM106 came out of. The M116 carried on growing normally; completely oblivious that it had gone straight into a disease-infested soil. M26 and MM111 also cope quite well when replacing diseased MM106's.

[Randommoose]

Hi,
Thanks for that. I was expecting to have to plant a different type of fruit tree there anyway as I have read that it is important not to replace an apple tree with another in the same place because of the build up of disease. So it would probably be a plum, cherry or some soft fruit going there.

[northepaul]

A russetty apple is not particularly juicy either....or if it was dry to the taste, maybe a cider apple? (I know there are quite a few in the Gloucester area!)

Also if you have trouble ripening apples and pears then cherries are much more fussy!! If they face north, then they wont ripen very well....

[FB.]

Hi,
Thanks for that. I was expecting to have to plant a different type of fruit tree there anyway as I have read that it is important not to replace an apple tree with another in the same place because of the build up of disease. So it would probably be a plum, cherry or some soft fruit going there.

The birds will appreciate your effort in growing cherries and soft fruit specially for their enjoyment. They'll even thank you by putting a deposit on your car or washing - or bombarding you with pips from the rooftop when you try to sit outside in the summer.
Wasps and plum-moth maggots will appreciate the plums - especially if they are sweet eaters.

Take care not to lurch from one crisis to another. Think very carefully before pulling out any of the existing trees. Sometimes, if the tree is healthy, it can be better to do nothing at all. This is especially the case if the previous owner of the tree knew what they were doing.

Have you considered re-grafting the apple tree to one or more different varieties - you'll save many years of waiting for it to re-grow?
Or re-grafting the pear to a quince or medlar?

[zazen999]

I was just going to suggest grafting other varieties on rather than dig up an established tree or two.

[Randommoose]

Hello and thank you for the replies!

I hadn't considered grafting, I didn't know it was possible to graft onto an old tree as I thought the rootstock had to be only about a year older than the scion. I will need to do some research into that. Please could you tell me a bit more about it or suggest suitable links for me to read? I'll look it up as well. If the trees are healthy, then it might be a good solution.

I'm not diving into doing anything just yet, I am planning ahead for the winter and some things might be the winter after this one. I just know I want to have a productive garden and it is exciting this being my first house!

The previous owner of the house was a disabled elderly lady who liked pink flowers so I doubt there was any particular plan to do with the fruit trees but you never know. Also, the house has been empty for 3 years so everything in the garden is rather neglected with no pruning or anything. There are plenty of other apple trees of different varieties around here, including at least 3 in front gardens within four houses either side (an eater, a cooker and a crab apple). No idea about what is in local back gardens yet!

I am aware cherries are pointless unless netted and that soft fruit is prone to birds too. Soft fruit will wineberry (birds don't seem to like it!), tayberry and rasberries which I am aware will probably need netting too. I'll be making a vegetable patch too.

Randommoose

[FB.]

Hello and thank you for the replies!

I hadn't considered grafting, I didn't know it was possible to graft onto an old tree as I thought the rootstock had to be only about a year older than the scion. I will need to do some research into that. Please could you tell me a bit more about it or suggest suitable links for me to read? I'll look it up as well. If the trees are healthy, then it might be a good solution.

I'm not diving into doing anything just yet, I am planning ahead for the winter and some things might be the winter after this one. I just know I want to have a productive garden and it is exciting this being my first house!

The previous owner of the house was a disabled elderly lady who liked pink flowers so I doubt there was any particular plan to do with the fruit trees but you never know. Also, the house has been empty for 3 years so everything in the garden is rather neglected with no pruning or anything. There are plenty of other apple trees of different varieties around here, including at least 3 in front gardens within four houses either side (an eater, a cooker and a crab apple). No idea about what is in local back gardens yet!

I am aware cherries are pointless unless netted and that soft fruit is prone to birds too. Soft fruit will wineberry (birds don't seem to like it!), tayberry and rasberries which I am aware will probably need netting too. I'll be making a vegetable patch too.

Randommoose

I would recommend you read-up on cleft grafting.

If the previous owner liked pink flowers, perhaps the "russet" apple will turn out to be the very rare and very beautiful "Brownlees Russet", which has large quantities of genuine medium-pink flowers which remain a medium pink after opening, rather than the usual pale-pink which fades to almost white when open.
I gave my cordon Brownlees Russet to a friend who admired its stunning blossom displays in spring. My larger half-standard Brownlees Russet was let down by its rootstock which died from crown rot. The Brownlees Russet part was always pest-and-disease-free and seemed to thrive in my poor soil.