Cordon Fruit trees

[Mikey]

Can someone tell me how much space the rootball of a cordon tree needs. I'm looking at giving over one of my allotment beds to some cordons. Is there a recommended spacing for this type of tree?

[orangepippin]

The spacing depends on the rootstock you wish to use. There's no specific recommendation, but M9 is a popular rootstock for apple cordons, and could be planted at 1m or less between trees.

You might also consider growing conventional (apple) trees on the very dwarfing M27 rootstock. These can also be planted very close together (as spindlebushes), and are perhaps easier to look after as they don't need the same level of pruning that cordons need.

[FB.]

Apples are usually happy at half the "official" spacing; they just grow more slowly due to competition. They also fruit earlier and the crop per square foot is greater the closer the trees are spaced (as long as they are no closer than half the ideal spacing).

There are several important factors to consider -

1. Rootstock.

2. Soil depth and fertility. Plants grow faster and larger in deep fertile soil.

3. Irrigation or adequate rainfall. Plants are mostly water, so will grow faster and larger where water is plentiful..

4. The vigour of the variety grafted to the roots. Not all varieties fruit early in life, not all grow at th same rate, and not all stop growing at the same age. Some are tip-bearers which tend to need to be left substantially unpruned in order to crop well - this therefore makes the tree larger as a result.


For rootstock, I'd suggest a mixture of M27, M9, M26 - assuming average to good soil.
I like the idea of diversity, since if a disease attacks one of the rootstocks, it may not be able to attack the others - so you're less likely to lose all the trees in one season to one single root/soil disease, pest or problem.
Please read on before setting these rootstocks in stone, so-to-speak.

For rainfall, I expect most parts of Wales get plentiful rain, but I'm sure there will be exceptions and some local mirco-climates which are surprisingly dry.

For scions and their individual growth habit, I'd suggest avoid tip-bearers. I'd suggest that if you must have a Bramley or other vigorous triploid, that it is on M27 or M9 rootstock in the hope of calming it down. Bramley is a monster and is capable of somewhat overriding dwarfing effects of rootstocks. I have a Bramley on "semid-dwarf" M26 and it's so strong that it grows as fast as my MM111 and M25 "full-size tree" rootstocks.
If you happen to want to grow a variety which is very low vigour (such as Greensleeves or Reverend Wilks) then you may need to move up to M26 or even MM106 rootstock in order to allow it to keep up with its more vigorous companions.

I do this rootstock/scion matching with my own trees - most of my "vigorous-rootstock" MM111 trees are grafted with vigorous triploids such as Belle de Boskoop, Gascoyne's Scarlet or Hambledon Deux Ans or the vigorous diploid Tydeman's Late Orange.
Most of my "very-vigorous-rootstock" M25 trees are grafted with medium-vigour diploids such as Spartan or Irish Peach.
One or two are "specimen" trees with a very vigorous triploid grafted onto a very vigorous M25 rootstock - such as Gascoyne's Scarlet which is a real super-heavyweight of an apple tree not far short of the size of a Bramley.

A few of my trees have very favourable growing spots with unusually deep, fertile or moisture-retaining (but not waterlogging) soil. In those spots I have medium-vigour varieties on MM111 - such as Winter Majetin or First&Last. The better growing conditions allow these average-growing varieties to keep up with the others which would otherwise rapidly outgrow them.

[FB.]

If you use the tree size estimator link in my signature, you could come up with approximations of tree size by rootstock.

Feel free to correct me, if my following assumptions are wrong:

I would class allotment soil as "above average".

I would describe your rainfall as "normal".

I would describe your growing season as "normal".

If I pick a vigorous-growth-rate variety on M27, it gets about 2m in size when mature IN THE ABOVE CONDITIONS. It could be kept to half that size without too much trouble. Cordon pruning is, itself, dwarfing.

If I pick an average-growth-rate variety on M9, it also gets to about 2m IN THE ABOVE CONDITIONS.

If I pick a slightly small or weak-growth-rate variety on M26, it also gets to about 2m IN THE ABOVE CONDITIONS.

Other parts of the country wil have their own unqiue combination of soil, rainfall and climate which can cause dramatic differences in mature tree size and rootstock behavior.

.

[Mikey]

Thank you both for your comments, the soil on my allotment is clay. I've got about 8 to 10 inches of decent top soil and have plenty of well rotted horse manure I can add to the soil as an improver, but there's no getting away from the fact that the surrounding ground is heavy clay.
I was thinking of using M27 root stock, but realise that will all depend on the fruit chosen. I'm looking at purely dessert apples rather than any cookers. My family generally err on the side of a tart firm apple rather than a floury or overly sweet variety. The area I have is 6 metres in length.

Thanks again for your very thorough responses I'll have a look at the estimator thanks FB.

[Mikey]

I've had a good look at your estimator FB, and it has listed the following apples which suit my conditions on a M27 rootstock.

Ashmeads Kernal, Bountiful, Braeburn, Charles Ross, Discovery, Egremont russet, Ellisons Orange, Fiesta, Greensleaves, James Grieve, Lord Lamborne, Red Devil, Red Falstaff, Red Windsor, Scotts Dumpling, Scrumptious, Spartan, Sunrise, Sunset, and Worcester Pearmain.

Of these I fancy, Spartan, Discovery, James Grieve, Lord Lamborne, Fiesta, Red Falstaff, Sunrise, and Sunset. I appreciate I won't be able to fit all of these into my small 6 metres straight run, but how many would work, and are there any of those above which don't work together. Its all a bit confusing to be honest.

[VirginVegGrower]

Worcester Pearmain is a tasty apple - don't rule it out too soon Mikey

[Mikey]

I think I'd discounted it because its children for a want of a better word, Discovery and Lord Lamborne, were both on my list, and supposedly inherit its characteristic strawberry flavour. I'm sure I haven't picked anywhere near enough storing varieties though.

[FB.]

I've had a good look at your estimator FB, and it has listed the following apples which suit my conditions on a M27 rootstock.

Ashmeads Kernal, Bountiful, Braeburn, Charles Ross, Discovery, Egremont russet, Ellisons Orange, Fiesta, Greensleaves, James Grieve, Lord Lamborne, Red Devil, Red Falstaff, Red Windsor, Scotts Dumpling, Scrumptious, Spartan, Sunrise, Sunset, and Worcester Pearmain.

Of these I fancy, Spartan, Discovery, James Grieve, Lord Lamborne, Fiesta, Red Falstaff, Sunrise, and Sunset. I appreciate I won't be able to fit all of these into my small 6 metres straight run, but how many would work, and are there any of those above which don't work together. Its all a bit confusing to be honest.

The calculator only considers the rootstock/climate interaction; the scion is not considered as there are many thousands and that would make for a very long and boring drop-down list! So only rootstock is independently selected as there are relatively few to complicate matters.

The varieties recommended are simply those which are readily available and grow at about the rate you entered. Some or all of the varieties being suggested to you may lack disease resistance unless sprayed, or may be prone to certain problems in certain areas.


In your six-metre run, you could probably put five or six M27's, allowing about a metre of space for each. Vigorous varieties will need more space - say 1.2-1.5m (4-5 trees) and very vigorous varieties about 1.5-2m (3-4 trees).

[Mikey]

Thanks FB, I've got two apple trees in the garden, and espalier and a stepover, and for the life of me I can't remember what either of them are. The stepover, I'm going to have to move as it doesn't like its position since I've planted some lavender in the same bed. I'm quite new to growing apples really so everything is a big learning curve.

What I didn't want to do on the allotment was put varieties in which wouldn't like the conditions. As for the disease resistance well I'm going to have to investigate a bit more, as I have no idea if South Wales is susceptible to any particle diseases.

Thank you for the dimension recommendations, it gives me a much clearer idea of what is achievable, and should allow me to narrow the selection process.

[FB.]

I have no idea if South Wales is susceptible to any particle diseases.

I'd suggest not getting varieties with any major disease weaknesses unless you plan to spray.
I'd suggest pay particular attention to resistance to scab because scab thrives in mild damp conditions.
Scab-prone varieties often end up with the fruit skins being split by scab and the inner flesh is then exposed to rot-fungi and insects.
Note, however, that disease resistance isn't definitive; it often depends where you are. Only last week myself and Orangepippin were singing the priases of the apple variety "Spartan" as being free from pests and disease (Cambs & Yorks), while a couple of the other growers from the SouthWest implied that Spartan was virtually un-growable there on account of canker and scab.