New garden fruit tree plan - please advise

[Randommoose]

Hello!

I have recently moved into a new house and would like to plant some fruit trees. Please could you check the details and plan below and recommend what would be best suited for my situation? Thank you very much!

Area: Gloucester

Sun: SSW facing fence, full sun all day apart from the end is a bit shaded with shrubbery.

Soil: - loam, after 1'6" slightly more clay so in between loam and clay. Easy to dig!
Soilscapes has the soil as "Freely-draining lime rich loamy soils" and the areas surrounding ours as "Lime rich loamy and clayey soils with impeded drainage".

Drainage: Dug a hole 1'6" deep, 9" wide, 6-12" long. Filled to 1 foot. First time hole filled with water 20 minutes to drain. Second time hole filled with water (immediately after it had drained from first time) 40 minutes to drain. The test I had read said if it took more than 4 hours there is a problem, so I reckon it is ok.

Pollination: I hope to have a suitable mix of pollinators or self-fertile trees. There is a crab apple, a cooking apple, a dessert apple within 6 houses either side and a Bramley 100 yards away. There may be more than that, that is just what I know from what I have seen in front gardens and the Bramley belongs to an aquaintance.

Forms: I will be growing the trees along the fence in fan or espalier forms (it doesn't need to be a perfect formal shape, just relatively flat against the fence) There is an apple tree in a rough fan shape already there which I will be topworking to a different variety (thanks FB for the suggestion). Apples must be spur bearers.

Space: the fence is 14 6 foot fence panels long, so 84 feet. 12 feet of that is not usable as next to conservatory. So there is 72 feet available. The final 12 feet is currently quite shaded (and has a fan pear tree I will remove). I may clear shrubbery etc. to allow the sun into this area.

The fence is:
xxPPPPPPPPTTss (each letter = 6 foot)

Where x=not usable as next to conservatory
P = full sun fence panel
T = apple tree I will top work
s = shaded fence panel

I have been working on the assumption that each fan/espalier tree needs 12 foot spread - is this correct and suitable? I will be keeping them to a maximum height of 6 feet.
That would give me space for 4 new trees in full sun, 1 topworked tree where it currently is and possibly one tree in the more shaded area (this could be a bush or half standard as it can be taller). I am planning on this being 3/4 dessert apples, one plum, one gage.
I would prefer to grow on a semi-vigorous rootstock and control the growth with good pruning.

Apple Varieties
Favourite shop bought variety for both of us is Empire.
Garden varieties - I have liked most I have tried but haven't know the names. The only one I have known the name of is Cox's Orange Pippin but I don't want to grow this because of disease concerns.
Dislikes: Granny Smith or all other acidic apples, not keen on most green apples but have only had limited variety. Not keen on a dry-fleshed apple. Prefer juicy apple to more floury apple.
The other important thing is that the apple trees have a spread out cropping period so I would like an early, a mid and a late.

Plum varieties
I am planning on growing a plum and a gage to have 2 different cropping seasons.
I like Victoria but probably wouldn't grow it because of disease concerns.
So I might get Marjorie's Seedling and one of the gages (don't know which yet).

Please could you give me suggestions about what would grow well in my garden? I would like trees with good disease resistance, decent cropping, spread out cropping period across the trees and taste that I like.

If you need any more information or photos, I will provide it.

Thank you very much!

Randommoose

[northepaul]

Are you only interested in desert fruit?

Cooking apples are fanstastic - so useful (making jam, pies and freezing the cooked flesh for the winter).
Damsons are lovely plums - again cookers but very reliable and useful....

Just acouple of ideas for you

[FB.]

I fear that your list of demands may be seeking the holy grail. The perfect apple.

Apples which are sweet, juicy, very-disease-resistant and spur-bearers are hard to find.

You may also want to include one or two lime-tolerant varieties because some varieties will not grow well in lime/chalk/alkaline soil.

I can think of varieties which most of the boxes, but I can't think of many which tick all.

Consider rootstocks M26, M116 and MM111 for apples. MM106 is too fussy and sickly but if it's all you can find then you may have to take a chance.

For plums, consider St.Julien A rootstock, possibly Pixy for vigorous varieties such as Marjorie's.

[Randommoose]

Hi,
Thanks for the answers.

Northepaul - I am just wanting dessert apples as I have access to 3 full size standard Bramleys with as many apples as I want with the parents and parents-in-law! So there is a surplus of cooking apples available. I prefer plums to damsons and if I did have Marjorie's Seedling, it can be used for eating raw and cooking.

FB - thanks for the information. I was planning getting non-MM106 rootstocks if possible, it is just harder as most places stock MM106 as default. Will M26 or M116 get big enough for a 12 foot wide fan/espalier? And would M111 work on my soil with good pruning to keep it under control?

I hadn't realised alkaline soil was a problem - I thought that was the norm and acid soil was rarer. I've tried searching for lime-tolerant varieties but not come up with anything useful via google yet. None of the nurseries I have been looking at state whether a variety is lime-tolerant or not.

I know I am unlikely to be lucky enough to find any apple varieties that tick all the boxes - but I'm looking for what is closest and I'm sure there must be something I can grow.

[orangepippin]

Marjorie's Seedling is a good choice for a late-season plum, or Guinevere has a slightly better flavour for eating fresh. Either of these would go well with Opal as a good disease-resistant early season plum (and one of its parents is a gage). If you really want a gage, then Early Transparent is pretty good, as is Oullins.

Fan-trained plums on St. Julien will need a good 14ft width and 8ft or more height (just looking at the fan-trained Opal on our garage which must be approaching 10ft now). As FB suggests, you could try Pixy, but I still don't think you will keep the height down to 6ft. Also, you can't rely on pruning to keep a plum tree under control, as you will risk introducing disease. In fact relying on pruning to keep height down is generally not a great idea, even for apples - better to get the size right first and then use pruning to fine-tune it or keep different varieties in balance.

I think a 12ft spread is realistic for apples on MM106 or M26 (or M116 if you can find it). Again the height might be an issue, so perhaps err towards M26 - although with fan-training, more vigour can be better than not enough.

I would consider Katy, Rosette, Discovery or Scrumptious for your early apple. Ellison's Orange or Red Windsor for mid-season. Then Kidd's Orange Red or Spartan or Sunset for your late one. Those are just suggestions though, but they are all basically reliable.

[Randommoose]

Thank you for the suggestions, I will look into those. Some of them (Scrumptious, Red Windsor and Kidd's Orange) were already on my potential list along with others.

With the rootstocks/pruning thing, I just thought from what I've read online that it is better to go for more vigorous rootstocks for tree health and to compensate for the pruning required to train the tree to a flat form. But I can see that I might have misunderstood that or taken it too far.

The trees toward the end of the fence can be taller than 6ft so maybe the plums could go that side? I'll have a think. What height and width would a plum tree on Pixy get to? Near the house, I don't want them getting bigger than 6ft so they don't shade the neighbour's garden. However, further down, the neighbours have a tall tree and multiple sheds of their own so shade isn't an issue.

Thank you,
Randommoose

[FB.]

Hi,
Thanks for the answers.


FB - thanks for the information. I was planning getting non-MM106 rootstocks if possible, it is just harder as most places stock MM106 as default. Will M26 or M116 get big enough for a 12 foot wide fan/espalier? And would M111 work on my soil with good pruning to keep it under control?

I hadn't realised alkaline soil was a problem - I thought that was the norm and acid soil was rarer. I've tried searching for lime-tolerant varieties but not come up with anything useful via google yet. None of the nurseries I have been looking at state whether a variety is lime-tolerant or not.

M116 is very similar in vigour to MM106. Some people find M116 to be a bit smaller while some find it to be a bit bigger - especially where the soil dries in summer as MM106 really does not cope well with dry spells.
In good soil, M116, MM106 and MM111 may not be much different in size.
M26 could match MM106/MM111 if the M26 is grafted with an above-average-vigour variety and if the MM106/MM111 is grafted with an average vigour variety.
An average variety, on M26, in average soil, would be somewhere around 8ft in size.
A vigorous variety (e.g. Bramley) may well make 12ft on M26. Some people with good soils and favourable climates have reported M26 around 14ft in ten years.

Some varieties which would be worth considering - for you to research - but where each has at least one known "problem" or sometimes-reported problem which falls short of your ideal:

Ard Cairn Russet (dry flesh)
Spartan (canker)
Worcester Pearmain (scab, canker, codling)
Scrumptious (woolly aphid, bitter pit)
Irish Peach (substantial-tip-bearer)
Winter Gem (sweet flavour but has a slight sherbet-like fizziness/sharpness)
Ashmead's Kernel (sweet-sharp as Winter Gem. Also some bitter pit and triploid)
Discovery (sweet-sharp, prone to codling and woolly aphid)
Laxton's Superb (prone to scab and woolly aphid)
Laxton's Epicure (various conflicting reports of problems)
Kidd's Orange Red (canker)
Tydeman's Early Worcester (relatively untried)
Devonshire Quarrenden (scab and canker)
Ellison's Orange (canker, codling)


Varieties which are thought to cope especially well with mildly lime/chalk soil:
Ashmead's Kernel
Barnack Beauty
Barnack Orange
Fiesta (Red Pippin)
Gascoyne's Scarlet
Crawley Beauty
Miller's Seedling (Red Miller)
Saint Everard
Charles Ross


I also think that modern apple varieties, being grown in perfect commercial orchard soils, have somewhat lost their tolerance of varied soil conditions as it wasn't a necessary criteria for their selection.
In my experience, many of the old and non-commercial types are very rugged and will cope much better with difficult soils in addition to having very few problems with pests or diseases. After all; they had to be grown in whatever soil our ancestors planted them, and had to fend for themselves without sprays.
Also in my experience: triploids tend to cope better than average when conditions are difficult.

[FB.]

With the rootstocks/pruning thing, I just thought from what I've read online that it is better to go for more vigorous rootstocks for tree health and to compensate for the pruning required to train the tree to a flat form. But I can see that I might have misunderstood that or taken it too far.

It is generally easier to reduce vigour of an over-vigorous tree than it is to try to boost the vigour of a tree which won't grow - especially as pests and diseases seem attracted to weak trees which often causes a weak tree to eventually be overrun and die.
For over-vigorous trees, stop feeding, stop watering and prune in summer.

Growing without chemicals puts quite a burden on the tree; the tree will have to expend its own energy blocking/repairing the attacks of diseases, and will lose some leaves to bugs and caterpillars, along with losing considerable quantities of its sap to aphids.
Imagine how much vigour you'd lose if you had things gnawing at you and sucking your blood!

Organic growers will go up one rootstock to what "the books" recommend.

I would not go smaller than M26 rootstock for spray-free growing. M116 (medium vigour) would be the best choice - if you can find one. MM106 is about the right vigour but has various disease and soil-fussiness "issues" mentioned earlier and I avoid growing MM106 as much as I can.
MM111 should not be grafted with vigorous varieties if you want to keep them as well-behaved garden pets. MM111 is for boosting the vigour of slow-growing varieties so that they can keep up with their M26 or MM106 companions. MM111 is also a "last resort" rootstock for soils where apples are difficult to grow due to flooding, soil-borne root diseases, droughts, harsh winters or lack of soil nutrients.

[FB.]

-
Here are a couple of pictures.
First is an aphid-damaged maiden apple tree. It is a vigorous triploid variety on M25 rootstock and its sheer vigour allowed it to simply outgrow the aphid attack. Notice the dark, crinkled leaves lower down the stem, then the explosive burst of pale green new shoots sent out in an attempt to fight back.
Final score: Aphids 1; Apple tree 2.

Second shows the vast mat of roots which a MM111 will produce - it doesn't miss an opportunity for water and nutrients. Look at the tiny little "stick" of a tree and the huge quantity of roots it has created to power its next season's growth.


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[FB.]

-
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....and here is why I really don't like MM106 - I've lost so many MM106's to root rots that I've lost count and it's not even funny any more.
I think that in the next few weeks I'll be digging-out yet another dying MM106 which has no hope of recovery.
These dying MM106's are nursery-infected stock where the disease has been carried by the roots and has taken a few years to show itself - crown rots usually strike trees which are several years old.

How do I know that it's nursery stock infection? Because my soil NEVER waterlogs (try waterlogging a soil which has gravel at 1-2ft depth; the water just drains straight through!).
Also because trees which are infected seem to not establish as well despite showing no obvious symptoms. They grow more slowly and tend to show more symptoms of root/sapflow dysfunction such as drought stress, sparse/small/purplish-red-tinged leaves, slightly more disease prone and increased fruit bud formation on young trees.

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[Randommoose]

Thank you for that information. I would be avoiding spraying so that is something to consider.

I have got a number of possible varieties now so it will be narrowed down partly by what is in stock at nurseries when I buy.

I would like to try Empire as that is our favourite shop bought variety and information I have read so far seems to suggest it does ok in this country. I have only found one person who stocks it so far so I have emailed to ask about the possibility of scions for grafting onto the established tree. If not, I'll get a young tree and get scions of one of the other varieties if I can.

Currently I'm looking at:
Early - Scrumptious
Mid - Red Windsor or Charles Ross
Late - Empire or Sunset

but I haven't yet looked up some of the ones FB suggested.

Thanks for the suggestions and advice, it is very helpful.

Randommoose

[FB.]

I would like to try Empire as that is our favourite shop bought variety and information I have read so far seems to suggest it does ok in this country.

I had an Empire but I euthanased it because it was hopelessly overrun with powdery mildew.

[yummersetter]

Charles Ross is delicious for a couple of weeks then turns mealy. Red Windsor is good but biennial here, I think - though I'm judging that on a young tree that has no crop in this exceptional year. I find that Sunset is midseason rather than late, it's quite small and tasty but doesn't keep as long as Kidds which will last till late January. Fortune is biennial but is a delicious juicy mid-season apple. Ellisons Orange Red is good and quite early and not troubled by disease here. My best fan tree is Orleans Reinette but its quite a dry apple - rich flavour though.
The Victorians used south-facing walls for growing fan pears or peaches on - I have an excellent fan Concord pear on a SSW shed wall that has much larger and sweeter fruit than a freestanding tree nearby. Good pears are hard to buy, too - the ones in the supermarkets are green and crispy whereas my homegrown ones are ready when they're yellow and mellow.

[FB.]

Charles Ross.....turns mealy.
Red Windsor.....biennial
Sunset is midseason rather than late......quite small......Kidds which will last till late January.
Fortune.....biennial.
Orleans Reinette......quite a dry apple.

There's no such things as the perfect apple, eh?
But there are plenty with enough desirable characteristics.


I do find it funny that you find Spartan rather canker-prone while I find it disease-free. Yet you find Ellison to be disease-free while I find it to be very prone to codling and canker. The few fruits which didn't get holed by codling maggots were very tasty though - sweet aromatic. Not too acid and not noticably aniseed. I find that Fiesta and Red Devil can be very aniseed-tasting - overpoweringly so after a few weeks of storage; tasting more like antiseptic.
Interestingly the unpleasantly strong aniseed tastes seem to be associated with years when Fiesta and Red Devil are particularly badly affected by bitter pit.

I had an Ellison which eventually died from Phytophthora crown rot killing the MM106 part. But in the time I had the Ellison it was very prone to Nectria cankers which tended to expand in size so quickly that they threatened to girdle several-year-old branches in a matter of weeks after infection.

[yummersetter]

Well, it really shows the effect of environment, doesn't it, as my 200-year-old (at least) orchard on clay near the sodden moors of Somerset with prevailing warm wet winds from the Bristol Channel just couldn't be more different to your situation.
I've just juiced a couple of thousand Kidds and Ellisons apples and hardly found any insect or scab attack - maybe half a dozen at most, and neither tree has any trace of canker at 20 plus years old. I've never come across the aniseed flavour that I read about, either.
I do find canker on the Sunset, though and on Claygate Pearmain, and my Ashmeads Kernel apples aren't really heathy either.
I'm hoping that your mm106 disasters are local too, as I have 125 trees on it that were in six inch deep floods when we dug them up at an abandoned nursery. I'm checking the bases carefully since your postings but so far they all seem to be thriving, three years on.