New garden fruit tree plan - please advise

[FB.]

She, if you please! Maybe about 75 years old, well over 50, anyway.

No, not you - I was asking about the tree. It's so easy to misunderstand what someone says on the internet, isn't it?

<ducks to avoid being hit by a deluge of rotten apples>

[FB.]

In desperate need of surgery this winter.

Out of interest, what surgery does it need?
Is it diseased, died-back, structurally damaged or just a bit out of control?

[yummersetter]

Lower branches, which almost reach to the ground, madly crossing and very congested with ancient spur systems. Ivy, nettles and elder have sprung up round the trunk which is obviously disliking the company. It used to look as if it was thriving but is now turning into one of those old neglected orchard trees. It is stunning when in flower though, like one of those old double cherries that used to be in every park, and the red fruits are very cheery, like an apple tree illustration in a children's book

[FB.]

It is stunning when in flower though, like one of those old double cherries that used to be in every park, and the red fruits are very cheery, like an apple tree illustration in a children's book

Yes, I don't know why BoB isn't listed for its decorative blossom.
In fact, most part-tip-bearers give a nice display.

The larger flowers of triploids also look more impressive - particularly so if it is a part-tip-bearer.
However, although Blenheim is both triploid and ptb, the blossoms seem to turn a horrible brown when they've finished and the dead petals seem to cling on. Spartan also has this annoying habit (although Spartan is neither triploid nor spur-bearing).

Pure spur-bearers never seem as attractive due to the previous season's growth tending to be bare wood.
Pure tip-bearers tend to be a bit straggly in appearance.

[orangepippin]

I would class Rajka as mid-season not late-season, but the apples keep on the tree for several weeks and it was one of the few which produced clean apples this year, quite an achievement given the dreadful endless wet weather.

Honeycrisp is another good new disease-resistant apple variety, mid to late season - we also got a good clearn crop off it this year.

Rosette is an interesting alternative to Discovery, very similar (probably a sport) but has a red-flesh.

Japanese plums – Methley is the most widely available in the UK.

If you are looking for Cox style apples then Rubinette is the best for outright flavour in my humble opinion.

[Randommoose]

Thanks for all the information everyone! It is very useful getting to know more.

Updated choices:
Early
Rosette/Discovery/Beauty of Bath - whatever I can get graft wood of. Rosette looks interesting!

Mid
Ellison's Orange
Red Windsor
Rakja

Late
Red Falstaff (was supposed to be on original list)
Christmas Pippin
Fiesta

I suppose at some point I just need to pick something, I just don't want to make a mistake!

Moose

[FB.]

I grow Fiesta and it's trouble-free to grow and extremely vigorous (doesn't do so well in cool, wet, acid soils) but it's not a first-rate apple for flavour, nor for keeping quality as it develops a powerful medicinal/aniseed taste and suffers quite badly from bitter pit. It has also become biennial.

Falstaff is not a long-keeper either, and seems to also be prone to bitter pit.

Not sure about Christmas Pippin, but if you mean Christmas Pearmain I can't say I'm impressed with that one, either.

I'd rather have Ashmead's Kernel than any of the above - it's prone to bitter pit, but so are a lot of other apples, which, for some reason, the catalogues omit to mention.
The flavour of AK is much superior to Falstaff, Fiesta or Christmas Pearmain - and AK keeps better too.
In this cool, dull, damp years, AK fruit was the highest for quality of all those that I grow. Winter Gem and Spartan also did well.
My Discovery performed poorly (on MM106 - but this rootstock doesn't do well in diffuclt conditions) but a nearby Discovery (presumed on M25) had a good, flavoursome crop.

[orangepippin]

I beg to differ with FB, I find Fiesta is one of the best Cox-alternatives, a very pleasing flavour and also produces a really good quality juice. I've also not had any problems with storing it up to Christmas, except that the aromatic flavour just fades to become just sweet.

Christmas Pippin is a new seedling variety introduced in the last year or so, and not connected to Christmas Pearmain. I'd guess it has some Gala in its ancestry. I've got one young tree, so can't report much other than to say the apples have a good pronounced fruity flavour and the tree seems healthy inspite of the dreadful weather this year.

With regard to Ashmeads Kernel, I think most people will find Falstaff and Fiesta far better for everyday snacking. Falstaff in particular tastes and feels exactly like what most people expect a modern apple to be. That is not knocking the powerful flavours of Ashmead's Kernel, but its not necessarily one for everyday eating. Just my opinion - flavour is such a personal thing!

[FB.]

I beg to differ with FB

Different soil and different climate gives a different response for each variety to the conditions.

flavour is such a personal thing

Absolutely.
Sweet apples, sharp apples, aromatic apples, juicy apples, dry apples, crunchy apples, soft apples, big apples, small apples.......

[orangepippin]

This is why I think rating apples for flavour is not a good idea (although I have been guilty of it in the past).

However one thing I will say is that when we used to run apple day tasting events, a typical scenario was for someone to arrive specifically wanting to taste XYZ traditional heirloom variety, but having tasted many different varieties, would then leave having purchased a bag of Falstaff or Meridian or Saturn. I think this is because the old varieties have a romance which the modern ones lack, but the modern ones have a more approachable flavour.

Maybe it is a bit like wine, we all know the old Burgundies and Bordeauxs have the best and most complex flavours, but sometimes you just want a regular bottle from Australia or South Africa which does what it says on the label.

[yummersetter]

Here's the Beauty of Bath in 2009 - by the way, I may have counted one acrobat too many, think its more like 24ft high

[FB.]

Falstaff or Meridian or Saturn.

Falstaff - no; but I quite like Meridian and Saturn.

However, Meridian was a magnet for woolly aphids, so I had to abandon growing it.

Saturn wasn't as resistant to mildew (or canker) as I'd like; I need a lot more than "average" mildew resistance.

I no longer grow either and wouldn't bother to do so again; they are rather too "commercial-oriented" and not rugged enough for garden use in my area (might be OK in other areas), whereas most old-timers do have that all-round ruggedness that I need.

I still prefer the taste and all-round disease resistance of Ashmead's Kernel.

If we grafted Ashmead's Kernel, Meridian, Saturn and Falstaff onto a strong rootstock such as MM111, I'd put my money on the Ashmead's Kernel to continue to produce good fruit in less-than-ideal conditions, and I'd also put my money on the Ashmead's Kernel tree living the longest.

[Randommoose]

Hi, it's me again!

I have one final question - how much sooner cropping are Rajka or Sunset compared to Red Falstaff? I don't need dates just something along the lines of 'Rajka is x weeks earlier'. I am hoping that one or the other of them might work as a mid season apple compared to the lateness of Red Falstaff and I am getting conflicting answers when searching online.

Thank you very much! You have been very patient and informative

Randommoose

[orangepippin]

I'd say Rajka is a 2-3 weeks earlier than Falstaff here, but the apples stay ripe (without going 'over') for a week or more on the tree. Of the three of them, I am certain it is the only one that could qualify as mid-season.

[yummersetter]

Funny you should say that, I'd definitely call Sunset a mid-season rather than a late apple, they're going flabby in store now and were falling off the tree by mid October in this late season - I don't have the other two. Martin Crawford says Sunset is mid-season and Falstaff late in 'The Directory of Apple Cultivars' - my version is 1994 and doesn't have Rajka.