Apple Tree Dilemma.....

[FB.]

I have a space whre I had been planning to plant another apple tree. I had recently decided to plant a Gravenstein in that spot.

However, a few feet from the planting site, I had temporarily put one of my "spare" trees, last winter; a Norfolk Beefing - on the rare M116 rootstock. It was just intended to sit there until I found a better use for it, pending the evaluation of results from my other M116's.

However, having cleared my way through to this abandoned spot, I found the Norfolk Beefing M116 to be absolutely thriving - lots of good, strong, new growth - despite not being cared for in any way since I simply dug a hole to "heel in" the young tree last winter.

This "abandoned" and not-yet-fully-established Norfolk Beefing M116's new growth was noticably greater than the new growth on its Winter Majetin MM111 neighbour which has been in its location for a few seasons and is "established". We're talking 12-18 inches of new growth on the "established" Winter Majetin, compared to 18-24 inches of new growth on the "just dumped where it is" Norfolk Beefing.

So my problem is this:

Do I leave the very happy Norfolk Beefing M116 where it is, or take it out in a few weeks time to put in the intended Gravenstein?

Bear in mind that I already have another Norfolk Beefing, but I do not have a Gravenstein.

But also bear in mind that data on M116 rootstock performance is difficult to find, so it could be a useful tree to leave where it is.

Also bear in mind that M116 is very disease-resistant, and adds an extra diversification to my usual MM111 and M25 rootstocks.

Also bear in mind that trees near this spot have suffered from regular and severely disfiguring infestations of woolly aphid - and Norfolk Beefing can be prone to woolly aphid.

However, as the tree matures to full size, there's a chance that some branches will overhang the boundary. Gravensteins tend to drop the second they come ripe, while Norfolk Beefings tend to cling tight well into November-December.

So what should I do - and why?

[DuncanM]

Well my first suggestion...would be to wait for the forum apple expert FB to come along...but wait... that's you.

So my suggestion - Leave the Norfolk Beefing where it is. However graft the Gravenstein on to it in a way that the tree is split into two halves. One half Gravenstein, one half NB, with the NB half the one that would overhang the neighbours.

That way you get to:
1) Keep the rare rootstock
2) Have a Gravenstein
3) Get access to the apples that drop on the floor
4) could hopefully get the apples that don't drop, but overhang your neighbours fence (if they don't over hang too much). If they start to overhang a lot, you can prune and keep the fruit, and use the wood for firewood.
5) Judge the effect the variety has on the rootstock. Like you've mentioned many times in the past, Bramley will outgrow a dwarf roots. Having two types on the same rootstock will mean you can have some form of comparison between how vigorously each variety grows but also what effect the rootstock has - which would be good given the performance data on the rootstock is sparse.
6) Keep the growth you've got of your NB, saving you another year or two.
7) Get the disease resistence from the rootstock, but allow you still have half a tree if the Woolly aphid somehow destroyed the NB part

That's all I can think of... (not sure how true they would be, but my "thoughts" anyway)

[veggiechicken]

Like Duncan, I'm tempted to say - if you don't know what to do, how do you expect us too!
personally, if the NB is happy where it is and on an unusual rootstock I would leave it to grow - you can compare its growth with your other NB that I assume is not on the same rootstock.
Find another location for the Gravenstein - you may have to get rid of one of your not-so-good trees - but I'm sure you can find another spot for it.

[Glutton4...]

Well my first suggestion...would be to wait for the forum apple expert FB to come along...but wait... that's you...

That made me smile!

Yup - wot Duncan said; if it's thriving, leave it.




(Although, it could be worth bearing in mind that I know nothing about growing apples.)

[orangepippin]

Physician heal thyself!

I agree with previous comments, find somewhere else for the Gravenstein, and let the M116 carry on for a bit to see what turns out.

[mothhawk]

Never move a happy plant!

You say it's thriving and growing well, so it should be better able to withstand woolly aphid attack, you can prune back any branches that start to overhang the boundary, the apples look after themselves until well into winter, and if you moved it and it died you'd lose an M116 rootstock. Plus, why make extra work for yourself?

The Gravenstein will be just as prone to woolly aphid if you plant it there, so put it elsewhere or do without.

[yummersetter]

Are you happy with the existing position of the M116? If so I think ditto, DuncanM's suggestion seems like a good one to me, but I've no personal knowledge of the rootstock or the varieties. Out of interest, what rootstock are the other Norfolk Beefing and the Gravenstein on?
Obviously after you graft it it'll be vital to neglect the tree again

[FB.]

Are you happy with the existing position of the M116? If so I think ditto, DuncanM's suggestion seems like a good one to me, but I've no personal knowledge of the rootstock or the varieties. Out of interest, what rootstock are the other Norfolk Beefing and the Gravenstein on?
Obviously after you graft it it'll be vital to neglect the tree again

The M116 Norfolk Beefing is about 3-4 feet away from where it'd be ideal. It wasn't newly-grafted; it was/is a few years old.
In its current position it's a bit closer than I'd like to the Winter Majetin MM111 and a Gascoyne's Scarlet M25.

The other Norfolk Beefing is M25 rootstock. The Grav could be any rootstock, but I was planing more along the lines of MM111 vigour for the Grav. I was even thinking about trying another MM106, since this area may be the "least worst" for the MM106's which I have; I have a Fiesta/106 which behaves normally.
I like diversity of rootstocks in order to try to prevent all trees being taken down by the same problem at the same time. I've actually read studies which demosntrate that trees on the same rootstock next to each other will eventually join their root systems (M9 meets M9 and it recognises itself, so is happy to fuse together; M9 meets MM106 and the two different trees are not happy to join).
This root fusion has been found to allow the spread of diseases because the sap flows have become joined at the roots.
So where possible I try to alternate MM111....M25.....MM111.....M25. Any MM106's or M116's which can become half-standards are welcome because they form yet another barrier to the spread of diseases from one root system to another.

[FB.]

The Gravenstein will be just as prone to woolly aphid if you plant it there, so put it elsewhere or do without.

I'm not sure - I have credible evidence from other grower reports that Gravensteins are less prone to woolly aphid, or less badly damaged than average if/when they do become colonised.
If I plant a Gravenstein, I guess I'll find out pretty quickly; this area is a woolly aphid hotspot and it won't take long for the woollies to find it due to nearly all the local apple trees being heavily infested.

The other trees near to this Norfolk Beefing M116 are varieties which are generally considered less prone to woolly aphid (or varieties which I have found to be resistant) - Gascoyne's Scarlet, Golden Delicious, Irish Peach and Winter Majetin.

[Aberdeenplotter]

FB, like the others, I'm amazed to see you seek the advice of us unworthies. Any time I see you post advice in reply to our problems I'm so full of admiration at the depth of your knowledge. I suspect you must just have been having a crisis of confidence when you started this thread. I'm not going to attempt to profer any advice. I'm not a tree person and leave these things to the experts which as the others have pointed out is you. My cap is doffed in respect.

[yummersetter]

I guess there's be little damage in a short move, would there? You'd lose minor roots but the Victorians recommended lifting, root pruning and replanting fruit trees every few years to increase fertility. We moved 5-10 year old apple trees that were out of the ground for 24-48 hours and they recovered well - yours could travel four feet in mid-winter and not even realise it, I reckon.

[FB.]

FB, like the others, I'm amazed to see you seek the advice of us unworthies.

It's genuinely something which I can't decide upon - the pro's and con's seem balanced.

Pro's for keeping the Norfolk Beefing in place, or maybe a short-distance move:

1. The tree is doing well where it is - mothhawk also doesn't like interfering with happy plants..
2. Fruit will not drop over boundary.
3. A chance to gather more data on M116 performance.
4. A different rootstock adds diversity.

Con's for leaving things as they are:

1. I already have a Norfolk Beefing.
2. Having lost a James Grieve and Egremont Russet to canker in 2012, I am a bit lacking in early-mid varieties; Grav is early-mid, while Norfolk Beefing is very late.
3. Norfolk Beefing is not resistant to woolly aphid (Grav might be less prone), and apples in this spot tend to suffer bad and frequent attacks.
4. The tree is not ideally placed (but as Yummersetter says: the tree might not notice a short move; I am experienced at lifting trees carefully, without them noticing they've been moved).

Feel free to say any factors which might tip your opinion one way or the other. I really am undecided because I had a plan - to plant a Gravenstein - but mooching around in recent days I saw just how happy the abandoned Norfolk Beefing was. So by not planting a Gravenstein I'd be changing my plan. But by planting one I'd be doing away with a root/scion combination which seems very happy; a Grav/111 or Grav/106 might not turn out to be as happy.

[veggiechicken]

It seems to me FB that you will always be unhappy with this tree is this location because it doesn't fit into your plan. So if you leave it in situ, next year you'll have the same reservations about it.
If you consider the pros and cons are balanced, you should follow your plan and gain peace of mind!
Move the NB and plant the G in its place

[FB.]

I guess there's be little damage in a short move, would there? You'd lose minor roots but the Victorians recommended lifting, root pruning and replanting fruit trees every few years to increase fertility. We moved 5-10 year old apple trees that were out of the ground for 24-48 hours and they recovered well - yours could travel four feet in mid-winter and not even realise it, I reckon.

Yes, a move of a few feet should still put the roots close enough to whatever they were happily growing in. I've lifted plenty of young trees from my growing-up area to their final locations without them apparently noticing.
When some of my MM111's were 3ft high sticks as thick as a pencil, I noted that they could grow roots 3-4ft in each direction in their first season. If I put the Norfolk Beefing's larger roots closest to where it is currently planted and the roots can grow a few feet per season, they ought to soon find their way back to their preferred soil. It's possible that the soil will be even more favourable in the "new" spot.

[FB.]

It seems to me FB that you will always be unhappy with this tree is this location because it doesn't fit into your plan. So if you leave it in situ, next year you'll have the same reservations about it.

Yes, it isn't quite where I want it to be. But it's doing so well.......

If you consider the pros and cons are balanced, you should follow your plan and gain peace of mind!
Move the NB and plant the G in its place

If I take out the NB, I don't know whether I can find it a home - and if I did take it out, I'd probably take the view of "I've already got a Norfolk Beefing".

Perhaps I should decapitate the NB/116 during the winter and attempt to turn it into a M116 "stool" bed for propagation of more M116 rootstock.
Then plant a Grav where I had intended.