Cordon plum and cherry would you recommend?

[Pineberry]

Hi,

I am a newbie to gardening I wanted to buy several cordon cherries and plums of different varieties but while googling came across advice not go for cordons plums or cherries, instead opt for dwarf rootstocks. But I would like to know why plums, cherries are not suited as cordons? Pomona sells many varieties and it is very tempting for space saving. Please advice.

[zazen999]

From what I can see at Ryton, none of the shaped plums produces much fruit.

[FB.]

Plums and cherries tend to be very prone to diseases such as canker or silverleaf entering pruning cuts. Cordons and other trained/restricted forms need lots of regular pruning, so leave many more wounds which may become infected.
Also the growth habit and where on the shoots a plant fruits (e.g. plums are rather similar to tip-bearing apples; tip-bearers are not as easy to train into compact shapes).

Before embarking on a large order for dwarf rootstocks, make sure you have assessed the quality of your soil; dwarfs need perfect growing conditions, or, if grown in less than perfect conditions will need lots of regular and heavy feeding and watering.
If your soil is low quality (shallow, infertile, dry etc) then you may need a stronger rootstock than "the books" suggest. My soil is so awful that even the most vigorous rootstocks (apple M25, MM111 and pear Pyrus communis) behave like semi-dwarfs; growing slowly and cropping very early in life.

I can barely keep a St.Julien A (plum) rootstock alive in my soil - I wouldn't even consider the dwarfing Pixy as it'd be a lost cause.
Colt (cherry) makes bushes about 7-10ft/2-3m in size (i.e. the same size as "the books" tell me that the dwarfing Gisela rootstock should reach).

[Pineberry]

Thank you for clarifying the question. The soil in garden I believe is fertile but this year showed a massive problem it gets too wet with this exceptional amount of rain we had so far. The water table is about foot deep from the surface. I do need something that will enjoy its roots being wet on this kind of year, otherwise I do not know what I can plant.

[FB.]

I do need something that will enjoy its roots being wet on this kind of year, otherwise I do not know what I can plant.

Many fruit trees will drown, rot or suffer from fungus killing the roots if grown in saturated soil. Given the extreme rain this year, I'm expecting to see a lot of fine old trees die over the next several years as they gradually succumb to the significant root damage incurred this year.

Some rootstocks are fairly resistant to wet ground, while others (especially the really vigorous ones) can often heal themselves if given enough time without further saturated soil.

If you have a drainage problem consider planting on mounds or in raised beds. Raised beds also allow you to determine the fertility by the amount of compost/manure added at the time they are made.

If your soil is only 1ft to the water table, you may find that the lack of depth for rooting will dramatically reduce the growth rate as the roots will need to grow bigger and further in the topsoil in order to compensate to gather sufficient nutrients (obviously water isn't a problem).
It is normally recommended that fruit trees have at least 2ft of good topsoil taht is fertile, moisture-retentive but not waterlogging.
Less than the recommended depth tends to result in smaller trees, and often less-well-anchored trees if you're not careful due to the shallow rooting.
Dwarfs, being rather shallow rooted anyway may not notice much difference and are often a bit more resistant to root rots than vigorous rootstocks, although dwarfs are slower to recover after damage or near-drowning.

[orangepippin]

In answer to your question, the fruiting pattern of plums and cherries is not really suited to the fairly intensive pruning regime required to manage a cordon. The likelihood is you will (a) prune off next year's fruiting buds and (b) introduce disease through the pruning cuts. Because of the risk of introducing disease it is best to avoid pruning plums and cherries altogether if you can after the initial formative pruning - in other words train them, don't prune them.

In contrast, most apples and pears bear fruit buds on short "spurs", and also are not as prone to diseases that can be introduced via pruning cuts - so they are very well suited to training in restricted forms such as cordons. You often get better fruit quality (albeit less overall production) this way too, because the developing apples or pears get good exposure to sunlight.

[How much?]

Hello all, (another newbie!) How about Columnar? I'm hoping to do so, because I don't have much space. I assume this is just keeping it erect and keeping any branches to say 6 inches well spaced out. Mmmm just re read the post above and sounds like it's a no no.....oh well.

Is the difference between cordon and columnar one has branches the other doesn't?

I have just taken delivery of a Bramley, Cherry Stella and Victoria plum. Not sure if it's ok to say where from on here so I won't at the mo. Have just read that you shouldn't prune in the winter because of Silverleaf. Yet my cherry and plum had had their branch tips clipped, not pruned, just clipped with a straight cut no where near a bud. I suspect to package them easier although the packaging was fine and would have easily accommodated the extra inch or 2 !

Please can you tell me if tip bearers only produce at the tip? ....and will fruit spurs (apples only?) grow out from the trunk or only from branches?

I have trawled the other forums and here appears to be where the experts are! so I thought this is where I belong

[orangepippin]

Cordons or Columnar trees are really just variations on a theme. Fruit is grown on short spurs close to the main stem. This has two advantages, firstly you can grow many trees in a small space, and secondly the fruit quality is often better because you naturally get fewer fruits and they are better exposed to sunlight.

Columnar trees are grown vertically whereas cordons are often grown at a 45 degree angle - in which case they are called oblique cordons.

The key point in either case is that these are not "natural" forms - if you leave a cordon or columnar tree un-pruned it will soon revert to being a regular tree. You need regular summer and sometimes winter pruning to maintain the shape. Whilst this works very well with apples and pears, it does not suit plums and cherries (or other stone fruits).

Howmuch: you don't say how old your trees were but some nurseries may prune 1-year bare-root trees before delivery because it helps the tree to start growing properly in the spring. It is usually a good thing.

[How much?]

Thank you for your reply orangepippin.

My new trees to me are 2 year old, about 5' tall and the Bramley consists of central leader with several very spindly branches many of which need removing and I suspect the others need prunning back very hard? to leave about 4"?

Will these very thin branches grow fat or should I remove them all hoping new shoots will be stronger?

Have read enough about apical dominance to be confused, my Bramley will be a columnar so should I prune the central leader now to encourage vigorous growth or leave it alone?

Am I correct in saying you prune in the winter to encourage vigour? and summer to contain it?

thank you

[FB.]

Is the difference between cordon and columnar one has branches the other doesn't?

In my mind - and as orangepippin said - cordons, columns and minarettes are very similar. They are all basically variations on a cordon and pruned in similar ways.
Cordons are usually planted at 45-degrees and tied to an angled stake or trellis. Columns and minarettes stand upright and in many cases won't need staking as they don't have such top-heaviness as a tree.
Upright cordons/minarettes/columns tend to be a little more vigorous. 45-degree-angled cordons (the traditional way of growing them) are "tricked" into thinking that they are a branch and so behave more like a branch - growing more slowly and fruiting more readily. Not that upright forms don't fruit well - just that there may be a difference in vigour and cropping. Uprights, of course, take up less space.

[FB.]

Please can you tell me if tip bearers only produce at the tip? ....and will fruit spurs (apples only?) grow out from the trunk or only from branches?

Tip bearers produce blossoms and fruits at the end of the previous season's shoots. Spur bearers produce blossoms along the side-buds of two-year-old shoots.

Giving a tip-bearer an all-over shearing in winter will prune off most of the tips, and hence most of the coming crop.
Tip bearers generally do not produce many (if any) spurs no matter what you do.
Part-tip-bearers are a mix of tip and spur bearing - half the coming crop is lost if the tree is "sheared" in winter.

However, tip-bearers can be cleverly managed if you are prepared to sacrifice the crop for the first few years. If they are quite hard-pruned in winter (to induce more branches) and pinched in summer (to induce more branches) you can soon end up with a much-branched "twiggy" tip-bearer, where there are so many branch tips than pruning some off won't affect the following crop.

Sadly, Bramley is:
1. Part-tip-bearer.
2. Extremely fast growing - one of the biggest of all, often overriding dwarf rootstocks.
3. Very reluctant to fruit until the tree is mature and has attained a considerable size - I have a M26 (semi-dwarf) Bramley that's about ten years old and is still heading for the heavens and does not want to crop at all. Bramley on M26 is more vigorous and slower to fruit on its semi-dwarf roots than many of my M25 or MM111 trees (these rootstocks normally being used only for extra-large trees which require ladders - so you can see how awesomely strong Bramley can be!).

[How much?]

Blimey, there's obviously more to it than digging a hole and bunging it in

I had a few questions about pollination but maybe best leave that to the birds and the bees

Rootstock! also bought 2 patio trees, a pear and a gala, is gala short for royal gala?
and I asked which rootstock and well known channel island supplier said apple on M27 and pear on P22. I can't find any info regarding P22 with pears?

So with what you said about tip bearing, my new stone fruit trees having had their tips clipped. Do you think the growers did this to stop them fruiting in the first year so they put all their energy into roots and tops ?

I don't think I have ever seen a tree with just fruit at the end of the branches, would look a bit out of balance! though I guess i've never really looked closely, and i suppose the twigs , branches are all at different height, levels etc..

a day without learning is a day wasted !

[orangepippin]

P22 is an extremely dwarfing apple rootstock, mainly used in North America because it is very winter hardy (they have much colder winters than the UK). P22 is equivalent to the English M27 rootstock in other respects. I have not heard of it being used with pears, and I don't think that would be possible. If it really is P22 then perhaps what you thought is a pear is actually another apple tree!

[FB.]

If it really is P22 then perhaps what you thought is a pear is actually another apple tree!

Although it would be highly unusual, there are apparently a few varieties of apple and pear which can be used as inter-stocks so that apple can be on pear roots, or pear on apple roots, or a family tree with a mixture of apple, pear and quince branches all on one.
But apart from novelty value there's little point - and a greater expense - of grafting pear to apple.

[FB.]

Blimey, there's obviously more to it than digging a hole and bunging it in

I had a few questions about pollination but maybe best leave that to the birds and the bees

Rootstock! also bought 2 patio trees, a pear and a gala, is gala short for royal gala?
and I asked which rootstock and well known channel island supplier said apple on M27 and pear on P22. I can't find any info regarding P22 with pears?

So with what you said about tip bearing, my new stone fruit trees having had their tips clipped. Do you think the growers did this to stop them fruiting in the first year so they put all their energy into roots and tops ?

I don't think I have ever seen a tree with just fruit at the end of the branches, would look a bit out of balance! though I guess i've never really looked closely, and i suppose the twigs , branches are all at different height, levels etc..

a day without learning is a day wasted !

Royal Gala is just a minor variant of Gala - they will be very similar but not identical.

Pruning the tips off dwarfs when young is desirable in order to prevent runt-out; a condition where they try to fruit in their first year but the roots aren't strong enough - so they get stuck in a "can't fruit properly because there's not enough roots but can't grow roots properly because the fruits are taking what little nutrients are available".
Newly planted trees - especially bare-root on dwarf or semi-dwarf roots - are best not fruited in their first year or two.
More vigorous "full size" rootstocks (MM111, M25, Pyrus communis etc) are strong enough to both grow and fruit straight away despite "the books" saying that you have to wait years for fruit.

If you choose the right variety (i.e. not something really fast-growing and slow-to-fruit like Bramley) you can have a lot of fruit very quickly even on vigorous rootstocks - all the while a dwarf is still slowly building up its roots and not strong enough to fruit and grow at the same time.