New apple tree - advice please!!

[Philthy]

Hello all. I am slowly going mad trying to find an apple tree that meets my requirements, and any help on the subject would be very gratefully received.

I want to add an apple tree to my garden. I don't have any fruit trees, and hardly any knowledge of them. My requirements are as follows: easy to grow, good disease resistance, good vigour, ornamental shape preferred, good fruit flavour and keeping quality. Flavour is more important to me than yield. I don't mind pruning. And I'd prefer to go organic, but I'm not against spraying if this equals better results.
I'm looking for a dessert apple of the Cox's Orange Pippin type, but not the Cox itself.

I'm in Surrey on the North Downs. My chosen site is in the middle of a lawn approx 7m sq. It is atop a very gradual slope. It gets full sun much of the day. My soil is hard to categorise, best described as flinty clay. There is chalk down there too but its at least a meter down before you start finding pieces of it. The soil is fairly wet in winter, and bakes hard in summer. It can still be worked with a little effort. Most things in the garden flourish, and rhododendron grows happily alongside hawthorn and beech.

Following many hours of research, the following tree stood out for me:

Variety: Kidd's Orange Red - Flavour on par with Cox but better disease resistance
(except canker - I figured risk could be reduced when it came to preparing the planting hole).
The tree also has attractive crimson blossom.
Rootstock: MM106 - Mature height of 3-4m (but no higher than 4m). 4m spread.
Form: Half-Standard
Age at purchase: 2 years - Tree will have received initial pruning to establish form.
Bareroot or potted at purchase: Not sure. Each has pros and cons.

Further research has since uncovered other concerns:

The MM106 rootstock looks to be the most widely available, but also seems most prone to rots, not doing well in wet conditions, so a winter like we are currently experiencing would most likely ruin it. I find this contradicts the advice offered by nurseries that the MM106 rootstock is the best allrounder. M116 looks to be a better choice, but not widely available(?)
Every information source I've found, with the exception of the RHS, states Kidd's Orange Red has poor resistance to canker, which might not be fatal on its own, but combined with MM106 sounds like certain death in wet weather.
Also, despite the very attractive blossoms on this variety, one expert told me the tree had quite a distinct vertical habit which might not suit the half-standard form - I don't know what that means as I can't find any pictures of a mature Kidd's Orange Red tree.

So, I'm not sure what to do now. Any advice please

Phil

[yummersetter]

I love KOR, its troublefree and among my favourites of the 80 varieties of apples I grow.
I have two trees twenty and also seven years old, growing in loam on clay on shale in Soggy South Somerset and have never seen any sign of canker on either - or any other pests or diseases. One of the healthiest trees I grow.
The blossom is not only beautiful but slightly rose scented. I have had a good crop every year for the past eighteen - the fruit has a rose aroma too. I keep the best for winter eating, just getting to their finest now, and juice the rest - I made 30 bottles this year in a lesser cropping season.
My older tree (on M25) grew straight upright for about seven years then the branches began to bend over and it now has the form of a small weeping willow. It is said to need very little pruning and I didn't touch mine after the first three years, except to shorten where the tips of the branches are touching the ground. I'll put a picture of the tree up tomorrow.
Although FB on this forum isn't keen on MM106 I haven't had any problems yet with the 125 trees on that rootstock that I planted a few years ago. In fact I walked around them this afternoon and 95% are growing well with a lot of new wood and flower buds - some of the rest only have flower buds and no new shoots, some the reverse and that's at the end of a year where we have really suffered from rain and flooding round here. They were all moved at five years old so could be excused if they wanted to sulk about it.

[FB.]

Rhododendrons like very acid to slightly acid soil. That fits with the wet clay and cracked summer soil.

As Yummy says: I'm not keen on MM106 as it is prone to crown and root rots in heavy soil. However, it does seem that if MM106 survives its first five years, the lower trunk and root bark thicken sufficiently to give it partial resistance.
The crown and root rots enter through burrknots - these being cracks in the bark where roots emerge from many rootstocks; it actually makes it quicker to root and establish, but at the price of the risk of fungi invading the cracked bark in heavy soil. Once the bark has thickened the burrknots cease, and the risk of fungal invasion drops considerably.
So if you must buy MM106, I'd suggest being very careful about your supplier - and nursery prone to any kind of waterlogging will be at risk of shipping out trees contaminated with crown rot (phytophthora).
Keepers Nursery in Kent are among the healthiest and best stock I've seen. Blackmoor's MM106 and M26 appear to be satisfactory too.
Many other nurseries harbour a variety of strains of disease; you'd be shocked if I went into further detail (which I won't).
Given that you're on a slope, drainage should be adequate.

Although I've seen a few badly cankered Kidd's OR in my area, other growers have no problems with it (as Yummy above). I would consider KOR if I had the space to spare.
On the other hand, Spartan is supposedly prone to canker - and Yummy will confirm this - yet my Spartans never get canker (nor mildew, nor codling moth, nor woolly aphids, nor bitter pit, and only slight scab on a few fruits in very wet years).
Despite being in a dry region, I also have lost Egremont Russet to canker (a variety supposedly resistant) and also a James Grieve (a variety which can be susceptible).

So it seems to be a combination of:
1. Variety natural resistance.
2. Prevalence of the disease in your area.
3. Prevalence of strains adapted to attack your variety of tree.
4. Prevalence of the given variety in your area, which may act as a reservoir to pass disease to your same-cultivar tree.
5. Luck
6. Dealing quickly with an outbreak of canker to save the tree (I usually let nature take its course).

Meanwhile, I'm off to have a think about varieties and rootstocks that I'd use.

[FB.]

The MM106 rootstock looks to be the most widely available, but also seems most prone to rots, not doing well in wet conditions, so a winter like we are currently experiencing would most likely ruin it. I find this contradicts the advice offered by nurseries that the MM106 rootstock is the best allrounder. M116 looks to be a better choice, but not widely available(?)

MM106 - as a result of its higher vigour - copes better with flooding than M26, but M26 is much more resistant to the root-invading fungi which thrive in heavy soils. M26 produces less burrknots (less roots - it's semi-dwarf!) and M26 has thicker root-bark which makes a more impenetrable barrier to invading fungi. So although MM106 may survive flooding which kills M26, a young MM106 will probably later die from crown rot. A mature MM106 has a good chance of surviving the flooding and not being significantly infected, or being strong enough to stop the infection before the whole trunk is girdled (a one-inch-diameter fungal lesion has much more effect on a baby tree than a thick-trunked mature tree).

M116 is better than MM106 but is, as you say, harder to find. MM106 and M116 are borderline ability to make a half-standard; it depends on the soil.

When it comes to "the best all-rounder", MM111 is by far the best half-standard rootstock.
It is not especially resistant to crown rot, but has an uncanny ability to regenerate and completely recover after infection with crown rot, or after near-suffocation due to flooding.
It is also resistant to woolly aphids and is one of the most resistant to drought of any of the "modern" rootstocks.
For garden use, MM111 would be far better in a wider range of conditions than MM106.
In ideal conditions the two are fairly similar in size, but in soils which don't hold adequate moisture in summer, MM106 is reduced to M26 vigour and results in a tree about half the size of MM111. So MM106 is very variable. MM111 is much more consistent in its performance - although it has a slight preference for slightly alkaline soil (most soils are slightly acidic).

So why don't nurseries produce trees on MM111?
Because it is not quite as cheap and easy to propagate as MM106, because MM111 is a bit more vigorous than MM106 (too much for commercial growers) and because MM111 is slower to come into cropping and because it is a slightly lighter cropper than a same-size MM106 tree.
MM106 was chosen as the smallest rootstock which produced a tree which would not need staking in virtually any location.

M25 is also a good rootstock - in-between MM106 and MM111 in its drought and flooding tolerance. Much bigger than MM111 on good soils, but only slightly bigger on drier/poorer soils.
M25 will crop very early in life - the books are lying when they say it takes several years to crop: I can crop M25's as early in their life as I can a dwarf tree (and the M25 fruit is much better quality) - just don't put really un-precocious scion varieties (Bramley, Blenheim etc) on M25 if you want early fruit production.

[FB.]

Some potentially worthy varieties, with no major disease weaknesses, late keeping qualities and which should make attractive trees (in no particular order - and note that most cookers will lose their acidity in storage and become acceptable eaters).

Annie Elizabeth
Edward VII
Adam's Pearmain
Wyken Pippin
Ashmead's Kernel
Brownlee's Russet
Court Pendu Plat
Crawley Beauty
Belle de Boskoop
Claygate Pearmain
Rosemary Russet

Rootstock:
M25 or MM111 preferred.
M116 next choice but not for low-ish-vigour scions such as Court Pendu Plat.
MM106 probably acceptable if the scion is not available on a better rootstock.
M26, M9 and M27 are not vigorous enough or well-anchored enough for your needs.

[FB.]

Also, despite the very attractive blossoms on this variety, one expert told me the tree had quite a distinct vertical habit which might not suit the half-standard form - I don't know what that means as I can't find any pictures of a mature Kidd's Orange Red tree.

With good pruning in the early years, you can make a fairly upright variety into a fairly spreading tree. Similarly you can make a fairly spreading tree into a fairly upright tree.

Upright varieties tend to resemble a wine glass shape, if left unpruned to do their thing.
Spreading varieties tend to resemble a mushroom shape if unpruned.

But people readily prune both upright and spreading varieties into cordons, minarettes, fans, espaliers, archways or stepovers.
So although it makes pruning a bit easier if you choose a variety with a shape closest to what you need, it doesn't mean that you can't shape it into something else.

I just made a very quick sketch below, of upright v spreading, to give a rough idea.

[Philthy]

Wow! That is a lot of information. FB, thank you very much for taking the time to put that together for me. I'm going to this thoroughly, make sure I understand all the points raised, and get back to you.

Yummersetter, thank you also. I look forward to seeing your picture.

Thanks guys

[Philthy]

*read this thoroughly

[yummersetter]

I'm going to fight the corner for deliciousness - what's your favourite variety of apple? If it's Cox, as you say, I don't think many of FB's list are of the Cox type ( though I have only grown some of them)

I grow Claygate Pearmain and Ashmeads Kernel ( and several other russets) and they've got this slightly mealy characteristic, like an apricot compared to a peach. Court Pendu Plat is along the same lines as Cox but is just now becoming ripe and has taken years to begin cropping. Rosemary Russet is 'just an apple' - I rarely bother to eat more than a few and leave most for the birds. (Just going through the Christmas bowl of apples as I write). Of the apples I grow, the four late season eaters that I totally pick in for our own use are Kidds, Coxes, Orleans Reinette and Golden Russet. I tend to take a few dozen of the best fruits on the rest of the trees and leave the windfalls for the winter wildlife.

[FB.]

The list I gave was for attractive, generally healthy trees.

Fruit flavour was only slightly considered as it varies with soil and climate - and taste is such a personal thing.

Of the list I gave, Ashmead's Kernel one-month after picking would be my flavour preference for eating, with Court Pendu Plat and Annie Elizabeth a month or two after picking being my next preferred choices.
Ashmead's can suffer from bitter pit, especially on dwarf or medium-vigour roots as a result of inadequate nutrient supply from the weak roots.
Ashmead's fruit quality is at its finest when grown as a big tree, with minimal pruning (after the formative pruning in the early years) and when grown on the strongest rootstock possible in a relatively infertile and relatively dry soil. For a big Ashmead's tree, I'd choose M25 for acid soils (pH below 7) and MM111 for alkaline (pH above 7).

Ashmead's Kernel and Annie Elizabeth are a little above average vigour (I'd like to call them "T2.5" because they are more than T2 types but less than T3 types).
Court Pendu Plat is a small, slow-growing tree of well below average vigour - T1.5 if I was allowed to abuse the size classification to include intermediate sizes.
This therefore means that Court Pendu Plat needs quite a lot stronger rootstock than the others in order to reach the same size in the same period of time (say M25 instead of MM106).

[yummersetter]

This is the 6-7 year-old Kidd's Orange Red that I rescued a couple of years ago from an orchard that was going to be bulldozed. Its on mm106 at the bottom of a south facing slope near the ditch

[yummersetter]

This is the twenty-year-old Kidd's Orange Red on M25

[FB.]

Kidd's OR is listed as "upright-spreading" and Yummersetter's pictures show it very well.

The tree starts off upright (subject to pruning and some randomness from one tree to the next), and gradually the branches bend under the weight until the tree becomes more spreading.

Some trees remain upright - often because of stiffer-than-average wood, or sometimes because the remain quite small and therefore not much weight on the branches.
Some are always rather spreading, with thin, flexible branches.
Tip-bearing or partial-tip-bearing often adds to the spreading nature of a mature tree.

[Philthy]

Morning all.

Okay, so I've taken on board the excellent feedback received so far, and these are my current thoughts:

I am 99% decided on getting Kidd's OR.
Cox is indeed my favourite apple variety, yummersetter, but even if it were my second or third favourite, this tree ticks enough boxes for me that I think I would still make it my first choice.

FB, I know your rootstock preferences are for the M25 or MM111. Unfortunately, M25 will definately be too vigorous for my intended site, and MM111 probably; 4m is about the maximum height the tree can go to. I contacted Keeper's Nursery and asked about M116 on the off chance they could supply it, being the next best choice, but they can't, and advised that neither do most other nurseries, saying it was too difficult to produce commercially. As you predicted, MM111 is not widely available either.

So that leaves MM106. Keeper's advised that the Phytophthora was primarily a threat to this rootstock if the soil was already infected with the disease. (I believe there were gooseberries on my site about 25 years ago but definately no fruit trees up to now). So being new ground, slight slope and reasonable drainage, hopefully the risk should be greatly reduced. I figured I could also dig the ground over thoroughly prior to planting and incorporate some gravel to improve the drainage. Noted also is the ability of MM106 to cope with short term flooding, but not summer drought, so watering may be required for the first few years.

Yummersetter, you mentioned canker is not a problem for you, and by the sounds of it your area is prone to wetter weather than mine, so thats encouraging.
FB, if you're trees become infected with canker, why do you let nature take its course, won't that ultimately mean all your stock becoming infected? Are the spores spread on the wind, and if so would it be worth erecting a simple screen around a young tree while it establishes itself?

Yummersetter, you're pictures are very helpful. Is the 20 year old tree supposed to look like that? I much prefer the form of the 7 year old tree. I appreciate it not fully grown, but I’d want mine to maintain that more formal shape long term. Do you think that is a realistic expectation, given the nature of Kidd’s OR, and my stated preferences on tree height (4m) and form (half standard)?

I’ve been considering the pollination aspect. There aren’t apple trees that I can see in any neighboring gardens. So I figured to be safe, I’d get a second, much smaller tree, to act as a pollination partner for Kidd’s OR. I’ve chosen Red Falstaff to fill this role. I’d get one on M9, and grow it as a cordon, in a pot, nearby. Or even M27.
Unless the trees need to be of roughly equal size to pollinate each other..?

I look forward to your response.

Many thanks
Phil

[yummersetter]

Hi Phil - it's the only twenty-year-old KOR I've grown so I don't know if its 'normal' - ask me in 13 years! I didn't prune the older one much after the first few years - I bet that would make a difference. I love it as a green cave and its stunning in flower so I've let it be. I've been round the bare branches and there's not any cancer or other obvious disease.
I'm just pruning my way through the younger trees on MM106, have done 60 so far including the KOR and have only found one patch of canker, on Red Delicious, and can't see any on the remaining 65. After a year that would have Noah visiting the woodyard, that's pretty good - I don't think its a threat worth losing sleep about as you can usually prune it out. The only time I've had a real disaster with canker was when it took hold in the trunk of a young standard Tun apple, a foot up from the graft. I scrapped that tree.
The young shoots are brittle, more than most - I tend to bend down high shoots to prune them and have never had any problems with that at this time of year, but the first one I tried on the young Kidds snapped, so it was a ladder job. That brittleness is no problem if you're aware of it.