Growing fruit trees - Organic vs Un-treated

[boundtothesoil]

I don't take any precautions at all against codling - I don't need to. .

I don't understand. Do you mean that you 'don't choose to'? Are you saying that you are content or resigned to losing many Discovery, Ellison's, Scrumptious etc to Codling Moth, provided that your resistant varietes are unaffected?

I usually lose around 40% of my Ellison's, but I don't accept this and would still like to reduce this loss by methods other than spraying.

[FB.]

I don't understand. Do you mean that you 'don't choose to'? Are you saying that you are content or resigned to losing many Discovery, Ellison's, Scrumptious etc to Codling Moth, provided that your resistant varietes are unaffected?

I usually lose around 40% of my Ellison's, but I don't accept this and would still like to reduce this loss by methods other than spraying.

Yes, I choose not to spray or pheromone them; I'm happy for nature to take its course.

I accept losses to pests or diseases.

I gradually replace or re-graft troublesome varieties with something else; a kind of natural selection process.

Given that many of my earlier "trees" are on MM106 rootstock, they're gradually dying-off from root diseases anyway. Ellison and Worcester both died in the last year or so from the MM106 roots becoming infected with crown and root rot.

[boundtothesoil]

Prompted by a recent post, I thought it is worth mentioning the difference between "organic" and "un-treated" growing regimes. The two are not the same.

Whilst organic growers make use of natural predators and good husbandry techniques it is important to note that UK organic farming standards still allow the use of fungicides based on copper salts, potassium bicarbonate, and sulphur compounds. Certain mineral fertilisers are also permitted in some situations.

For commercial-scale "organic" fruit production it is perhaps inevitable that such chemicals have to be used, but I suspect most gardeners and community orchard projects would prefer to adopt an "un-treated" or "no spray" regime.

Reluctantly going off Codling Moth (temporarily), how would you define "un-treated" with respect to the addition of plant nutrients and soil conditioners etc to the soil?

The extremist view might be to exclude all human additions in any form (organic or mineral) to the system/site, with reliance upon nitrogen fixation by legumes such as white clover for provision of nitrogen, and the intention that all other nutrients, required on an annual basis, can simply be mined from the soil ad infinitum, without ever depleting them to levels associated with nutrient deficiency - clearly a non-starter on most soils!!!

[orangepippin]

That's a very good question. I think in the real-world most gardeners would probably consider home-made compost, or manure from a local farmer, as "un-treated", but perhaps that is not a complete answer.

[yummersetter]

I imagine most of us on this forum have the luxury of producing fruit for our own consumption. If we were attempting to make our living selling our produce I'm sure our decisions about varieties / pest control / organic / storage treatments would be much tougher.

[FB.]

I imagine most of us on this forum have the luxury of producing fruit for our own consumption. If we were attempting to make our living selling our produce I'm sure our decisions about varieties / pest control / organic / storage treatments would be much tougher.

If it was for profit, we would be much less profitable than the commercial orchards.

Same with the veg; potatoes and carrots with the odd slug hole are not saleable to anyone else, but are perfectly usable at home (thus avoiding having to pay for them form the shop, and being able to enjoy tastier and chemical-free home-grown). Even the damaged ones still keep quite well; the damaged bit can be cut out during preparation for cooking.
We finished the last of the "holed" potatoes about a week ago. We're now onto the ones which were in good condition, which we've kept until last.

[sugar]

If it was for profit, we would be much less profitable than the commercial orchards.

Organic growing can be more profitable then traditional culture. It just needs the right marketing approach ...

[boundtothesoil]

I imagine most of us on this forum have the luxury of producing fruit for our own consumption. If we were attempting to make our living selling our produce I'm sure our decisions about varieties / pest control / organic / storage treatments would be much tougher.

I'm sure this is true, but I'm not sure how financially healthy the UK's commercial organic topfruit sector is. I don't even know how many commercial organic apple growers there are. Some must be making a profit though, as 'sugar' says.

Anyway, getting back to what you say, there is a 'grey' area between growing simply for your own consumption and full blown commercial production; namely supplying a few local shops, or a stall at a farmers market (if you are luckky enough to have a local shop these days). With locally produced food, co-operative production and minimising 'food miles' etc being growing movements in many parts of the UK, I imagine that more and more people will be keen to do this. In relatively few cases is it likely to be their sole means of raising an income. It is more likely to be either a 'supplement' to income, or just a rewarding hobby. However, if such a 'grass roots' supply source really took off nationwide, it could have a significant impact on the supply of fruit. I'm thinking of say, for example, 5 million pensioners each producing, organically, 50kg of apples for sale - that's a mere 250,000 tonnes of fruit - not bad!!!!

Maybe this will happen in the not too distant future.

[Feral007]

" However, if such a 'grass roots' supply source really took off nationwide, it could have a significant impact on the supply of fruit. I'm thinking of say, for example, 5 million pensioners each producing, organically, 50kg of apples for sale - that's a mere 250,000 tonnes of fruit - not bad!!!! "

I would count that as a win!

[veggiechicken]

Here we have "Orchard Cardiff" which aims to identify all the fruit trees in the city and have co-ordinated
pruning, picking and processing sessions, particularly where fruit is unused by the householder and left to rot on the ground. I haven't signed up to it yet but probably will as my trees are too tall to pick without ladders - and I don't do ladders!!!

[FB.]

The saying goes:

Q/.
"How do you make a small fortune in farming?"

A/.
"Start with a large one"

It's very difficult to make a profit - especially enough to live off - for several reasons:

1.
Subsidies. These cause distortions in the market, and allow unprofitable "zombie" companies to keep going where they would fail without the subsidy.

2.
Cost of labour. British workers want ££ - if they can be persuaded to get of their lazy backsides at all. Most overseas workers will eagerly work for £.

3. Imports from cheap-labour countries are difficult to compete with - and in these difficult economic times, most people want the cheapest possible (as shown by the rise of ALDI/LIDL in the last few years).

4.
Once a large number of trees of the same cultivar are grown together (e.g. a big block of several hundred Discovery trees), there tends to be, over a period of years, a gradual emergence of cultivar-specific strains of pests and diseases which then require intervention in order to save the crop. So organic starts to have to be abandoned in favour of full spray. I have heard of organic orchards switching to non-organic for a few years, in order to bring pests and diseases under control.

5.
I can produce fruit very cheaply - but I'd have to pay big wages for someone to pick it and pack it.
I can produce good quality fruit - but nobody wants to buy a variety they've not heard of (hence every other garden in Britain has a Bramley, a Conference or a Victoria).
My good quality fruit will be more unusual in shape, colour or skin texture. Cookers will have considerable amounts of red - and being less acid than Bramley, or maturing to become eaters after storage, will often not suit the recipes/cooking instructions which are almost all written with Bramley in mind (so throw away the old cookery books!).
Eaters will be russetted, or large, or lumpy.
My fruit isn't going to win a beauty contest, and it isn't going to fit the stereotypical appearance and size of cooker/eater.

[yummersetter]

I don't think there's ever been a better time, though. There is an outlet with Farmer's Markets and hardly a week goes by without a TV programme banging the gong for traditional British apple varieties. A lot of the famous TV chefs have planted their own apple orchards ( Raymond Blanc, Hugh F-W and Jamie Oliver) and are making the recipes more interesting by suggesting more unusual varieties which will never be stocked by supermarkets.
My compromise for the unexperienced customer was to plant familiar heritage varieties in their 'red' form, Ellison's Orange Red, Red Miller, Red Peasgood, Red Windsor etc. so that the less adventurous buyer sees something they think is attractive. I could make up a 'taster box' with one of each of several varieties to sell. Its a long term investment though, I'd say a minimum of 5 years from planting to have a supply worth marketing, so no short-term profit.

[Marcher]

1.
Subsidies. These cause distortions in the market, and allow unprofitable "zombie" companies to keep going where they would fail without the subsidy.

Correct. Probably better to scrap CAP and bring in favourable policies for British agriculture. In the case of apples, aim to be self sufficient for 6 months of the year and let our relatives in New Zealand supply us for the other half.

2.
Cost of labour. British workers want ££ - if they can be persuaded to get of their lazy backsides at all. Most overseas workers will eagerly work for £.

Well I resent that term. This is the typical lined used as an excuse to justify more immigration by attacking the native population.
No, British workers will work, they just can't work for peanuts as farmers would wish to pay them. Eastern European seasonal workers often share accommodation and come as single people. British workers on the other hand usually want to rent a property on their own and establish some sort of permanence, may have a family and bills to pay. So it is very cheap for someone that is only sticking around for a few months, but for the permanent population it can be expensive. Thus they need proper wages.
Eastern Europeans are only eager for peanuts because it's actually worth more in their own countries. If the playing field was equal and their own countries were as rich as ours then they would not work for such low wages because they would not be able to afford to.

I've worked far below minimum wages just a few years ago. I became unemployed and didn't want to claim the dole, so worked on a farm and brought crops in for around £100 a week for seven days work and ridiculous hours. The other people working there were also British, the only difference being that they were older and had property (i.e. they didn't have to rent or get a mortgage now that previous generations have selfishly pushed up property costs).
So British workers are NOT "lazy", tight fisted farmers just need to get their hand in their pocket and actually pay their workers though.

3. Imports from cheap-labour countries are difficult to compete with - and in these difficult economic times, most people want the cheapest possible (as shown by the rise of ALDI/LIDL in the last few years).

Aldi fruit and veg is horrible (apart from the grapes which are okay). It is stores like Asda which offer things very cheaply all of the time which we have to watch out for. Then again we need food prices within the means of all people, already we have the poorer folks not buying many fruit or veg. Protectionist measures on some parts of agriculture would be better, over our agriculture, not Europe as a whole (since other EU countries themselves are competition).

5.
I can produce fruit very cheaply - but I'd have to pay big wages for someone to pick it and pack it.
I can produce good quality fruit - but nobody wants to buy a variety they've not heard of (hence every other garden in Britain has a Bramley, a Conference or a Victoria).

And somehow get access to supermarkets which will expect you to dump half of the fruit as being misshapen and will then dump a lot of what they buy through waste.
And people get common varieties because they're tried and tested. Bramley is far too common though, I agree with that.

[FB.]

I don't think there's ever been a better time, though.

What kind of costings would you envisage?
(land cost/rent, tree cost, stakes, ties, rabbit guards, tools, composts/manures, wages etc)

and what kind of revenues would you envisage, after the several-year maturing phase?


I'll throw in some "off the top of my head" "ballpark" estimates to get the ball rolling:

Cost of land: £10000 for an acre (but we'll ignore this as the land might be able to be rented, or if purchased it should be able to be re-sold).

Cost of trees, rabbit guards, stakes etc: £2000 per acre.

Years 1-5: negligible returns.

Each year, from years 6-20:
Yield of 15 tons/acre @ £200/ton = £3000 per year.
Annual running costs: £500/acre (assuming you don't employ any staff and do it yourself)

Which means that once established, it would require ten acres or more to pay its owner the national average wage.

.

Year: per-acre total profit/loss accumulated for trees and running costs:
1: -£2500
2: -£3000
3: -£3500
4: -£4000
5: -£4500
6: -£2000
7: +£500 (payback reached - profits are taxable)
8: +£3000
9: +£5500
10: +£8000
11: +£10500
12: +£13000
13: +£15500
14: +£18000
15: +£20500

[yummersetter]

I didn't say it was good, just better