Grafting grape vines

[BertieFox]

I've been trying to get grape vines to grow right over my pergola for about seven years! My first effort using dessert grape vines failed abysmally as the plant just died in the relatively poor heavy soil I tried a wine grape variety and it did little better, though survived. Finally, I dug up a self seeded vine which has been wonderfully vigorous and has covered the pergola with lots of leaves but fruit which would make the average lemon think it was sweet and sugary!
I'm wondering about trying to graft a decent variety on to the root stock of my wild vine... and I have a couple of pot grown varieties which would make nice fruit. Has anybody tried this, and how easy is it to do? Will the grafted vine grow just as prolifically as my original rootstock wild vine?
Any suggestions or hints would be gratefully received!

[Llamas]

The wild vine will try to escape and grow around it, BUT, if you have nothing to lose, try chip budding late this summer (If you've got time and enough rootstock and scion vines to work with, I might also have a cheeky go, now while the vine it still dormant. Just make sure that the cuts don't bleed. They might not in winter but I know it's certainly a danger in early spring to mid summer). Also, I'd start taking cuttings of your good varities and if by this time next year the grafted buds don't take then dig out the old vine and the surrounding soil for about two feet in each direction and replace with lighter soil and the rooted cutting.

[Llamas]

Links

Top Grafting - Chip-Bud grafting - Worldwide Vineyards - Excellence in Top grafting solutions

Fruit Tree Grafting

Google Image Result for http://www-intranet.angers.inra.fr/dossiers/haploidie/images/ecusson-eng.gif

Hope they help!

[BertieFox]

Llamas... thanks very much for the advice and the helpful links. I think the cuttings/budding approach is the one to take as that will give me a back up strategy.

[Marcher]

Why don't you just replace the soil? I'd take out 1 meter deep and 1/2 a meter wide (both ways) area of soil and replace it with a mixture of decent soil and compost. It'd give it plenty of room for the roots and you'd be much less restricted to what you could grow.
Vitis amurensis or riparia may grow in clay though, although I'd just replace the soil and grow grapes on whatever rootstock they come with.

[BertieFox]

"Why don't you just replace the soil?" Marcher

That was our first strategy, though I doubt I went down to a metre, which here would mean a well filled with water! Our house sits on the spring line and has a small stream emerging by the back of the house near the pergola we are trying to cover. The 'soil' is mainly piles of stone rubble, possibly from previously demolished out buildings, and although it is possible to get them out, and fill the hole with good compost, it tends to get waterlogged. Perhaps the amazing thing is that even the 'wild' vine is growing well here.... the other two grafted ones I planted either died or made no growth. That's why I thought I'd take advantage of the wild vine as the rootstock as it IS flourishing here.
Previously I must admit I thought vines would grow just about anywhere.

[Marcher]

"Why don't you just replace the soil?" Marcher

That was our first strategy, though I doubt I went down to a metre, which here would mean a well filled with water! Our house sits on the spring line and has a small stream emerging by the back of the house near the pergola we are trying to cover. The 'soil' is mainly piles of stone rubble, possibly from previously demolished out buildings, and although it is possible to get them out, and fill the hole with good compost, it tends to get waterlogged. Perhaps the amazing thing is that even the 'wild' vine is growing well here.... the other two grafted ones I planted either died or made no growth. That's why I thought I'd take advantage of the wild vine as the rootstock as it IS flourishing here.
Previously I must admit I thought vines would grow just about anywhere.

Ah, I see. Do you know what the wild vine is? If it's just grown there itself from a seed an animal has deposited then it's probably some sort of Vitis vinifera.
Vinifera is never used as a rootstock because it gets attacked by phylloxera which kills the roots. In continental Europe the only safe way of growing Vinifera on its own roots is to grow it in sand or in some enclave that phylloxera can't reach. Vinifera is sometimes grown on own roots in Britain because the disease is very rare here (since grape vines aren't too common yet).

If it's some sort of American species then it should be fine as a rootstock. There's an American species called Vitis riparia (the riverbank grape) that grows along rivers in America and is sometimes used as a rootstock. With it growing beside rivers it can probably tolerate clay and waterlogged soils a bit better than most.
Do you have any pictures?

Loire Atlantique is away from the larger wine regions though, so you might not get phylloxera anyway, especially if there aren't too many grape vines around.
I'd try grafting. Do you need any advice on it?

[redser]

Would it not be an option to grow one in a very large container?

[Marcher]

Would it not be an option to grow one in a very large container?

That's what I do with mine, although a lot of people are against growing them in containers. Mine have done fine so far and it's more convenient, I may put mine in a larger container this year though.

A garden bin should do fine, something about this sort of size:

[redser]

Thanks. And how many years do you think they would be happy like that? I have one in a 3 lt pot I picked up last summer and want to get it planted out soon in the tunnel. Thinking a large container would give me more flexibility inside.

[Marcher]

Thanks. And how many years do you think they would be happy like that? I have one in a 3 lt pot I picked up last summer and want to get it planted out soon in the tunnel. Thinking a large container would give me more flexibility inside.

10 years at least, although it could probably last longer in it. The main thing seems to be that the amount the grape vine will bear is reduced because it won't be as vigorous. Most varieties recommended for England are quite vigorous anyway compared to most varieties and plenty of people have them in containers. Vigorous grape vines usually have a lot of foliage at the expense of fruit anyway.
The problem with having them in the ground is that they can't be moved easily because their roots spread out. In a container they'd have to be well fed though, not so much nitrogen as phosphorous and potassium for fruit.

Grape vines in nature can grow in restricted spaces, they're often grown on rocky slopes such as the Mosel valley where their roots don't spread very far.

They do better in the ground, but they do good enough in containers if you keep it well looked after.

What variety do you have?

[Marcher]

This is how some vineyards look in Europe, it's only in English-speaking countries where we think grapes, olives and figs must be treated as apples and put in over-fertile, spacious ground. The great thing about this vineyard below is that the rocks act like a storage heater at night.



Grapes, olives and figs are usually grown in ground too rocky and shallow for anything else other than lavender to be grown in. Their roots are used to being constricted to an extent.

[redser]

That's a great photo and thanks for the info. I dont know what type it is, it was from Aldi and didn't say. It put on quite a bit of growth and I pruned it right back in December. It's my first gfo at a grape vine so I think I'll go with a container. Thanks and sorry for hikacking

[Marcher]

That's a great photo and thanks for the info. I dont know what type it is, it was from Aldi and didn't say. It put on quite a bit of growth and I pruned it right back in December. It's my first gfo at a grape vine so I think I'll go with a container. Thanks and sorry for hikacking

Oh, I bought one of those too to go alongside my Muller Thurgau one. It's currently still very small and I bought it in over winter where it came out of dormancy. It is small enough to grow in a window at the moment, so that's where it'll remain till summer.
No idea what the grapes will be likely, 99% chance that they'll be seeded, they'll likely be some dual purpose variety like Ortega or Boskoop if you got the black one. For £3 or whatever they cost I thought I'd take a chance, I'm also getting a Korinka Russkaja (a hardy seedless variety from Russia) soon, and I'm trying to get Alioshenkin (another hardy Russian vine, huge clusters of grapes but seeds). Triomphe d' Alsace is supposed to do well in the north though, I'm tempted to get that too, depends how much of the south facing wall I can take up.

[redser]

Cheers, I actually took the white one and wish I took the red. Dual purpose would be good as I just started into wine making, although I believe you need a decent varietal to make what you would recognise as commercial wine.
sigh, something else to get obssessed about