Dessert grapes

[Easygreen]

Re dessert grapes in the UK - Grafting
Hi All, I wonder if anyone can help me with advice. I bought two grape vines in a pound shop about 4 years ago and trained them over a pergola. They have thrived but the grapes are very small. I've tried various pruning and thinning schemes but it hasn't improved the size of the grapes, so I'm going to give up with them. It occurs to me that I could graft some more suitable varieties onto the rootstock. They would be growing outside near Rochester, Kent, UK over a pergola with plenty of sun. Ideally, I want a seedless black grape. Any suggestions on variety and when I should do the grafting ?

[FB.]

Might be the bad weather - mine were small and worthless in 2012. Maybe you need to grow them against a sunny wall.

(can you put your location in your profile - it helps to be aware of local climate/soil when people give advice)

[Marcher]

Small grapes could either be due to the varieties or cool summer. It might also just be due to young age of the vines. Many varieties sold in the UK are actually wine varieties where size doesn't matter so much.
What varieties did you plant? Describe them if you can't remember.

Some better desert grapes that are fairly easy to get are Boskoop Glory - a large black grape with small seeds, Lakemont seedless or Madeline Angevine. If you have a greenhouse then Black Hamburg is good, not outdoors though.
Try growing Boskoop against a south facing wall, it should do quite well.

[Easygreen]

Hmmm, yeah, I ain't got a sunny wall, got a pergola though...
I've altered my profile, thanks for the advice

[Easygreen]

I think the small grapes are because of the variety, they've been the same size for 3 years, whatever pruning etc I do.
When should I try the grafting ?

[sugar]

Did you reduce the amount of grapes on the vine?

A blue variety that delivers very large grapes is Kodrianka, but I'm not sure it's available in the UK. A white variety that I can surely recommend is 'Sophie', but once again not sure on availability

[Marcher]

Hmmm, yeah, I ain't got a sunny wall, got a pergola though...
I've altered my profile, thanks for the advice

Is the pergola in sun or shade? Triomphe d'Alsace would succeed on a pergola but the grapes are small and full of seeds (it's a wine grape, but apparently the wine isn't so good).
Boskoop would perhaps do fine up it too. There's also a very hardy vine from Russia which I should be getting soon called 'Korrinka Russkaja'. It is seedless and one of the best at ripening in difficult conditions, but the grapes are rather small and the only UK supplier seems to be Sunnybank vines.

Grapes up a pergola are very ornamental even if you can't get decent fruit though, much better than those overrated clematis in my opinion.
Here are some pictures of Triomphe d' Alsace growing up a wall and pergola in Northern England last year. A bad year, yet it still did well. Triomphe isn't really an eating grape (it's small and has quite a few seeds, but if you can get past that then it's fine) but makes decent grape juice apparently.





In Kent you should be able to grow better ones that this though, try Boskoop if you're after an eating grape like I say, or Rondo as a dual purpose grape.

I think the small grapes are because of the variety, they've been the same size for 3 years, whatever pruning etc I do.
When should I try the grafting ?

I wouldn't graft myself, you might as well just buy a vine where someone else has already done the work. You might be able to do it now, although the rootstock will bleed a lot. Seal the graft with melted wax to stop anything getting in their and control the bleeding.

[ashleybrook05]

I also have a question about grapes. Does eating too much grapes will make you tipsy?

[Aberdeenplotter]

not sure if that is a serious question but here goes anyway.

Animals foraging on ripe fruit can become drunk after gorging themselves. It would probably dpend on how ripe the fruit is and on how much was consumed and also whetherthere were any natural yeasts present on the grapes or in the gut.

[Easygreen]

Wow, they look great which variety is that ?
Yes I did reduce the number of bunches and the size of the bunch...

[chris]

I have Phoenix, it's very vigours - and erm grew three bunches of grapes it's its tiny 1.5l pot.

Infact, I'd best plant it this year. Can recommend it as a white eater. Has seeds mind.

[sugar]

Wow, they look great which variety is that ?
Yes I did reduce the number of bunches and the size of the bunch...

The blue one (picture) is 'Kodrianka'

[Garden_Chris]

Grapes Grapes Grapes!
My my, do I have a soft spot for these curious plants.
Regretfully, however, I'm completely unqualified to offer any advice of the actual taste of the following varieties as I've yet to taste them myself (although, all things being equal, this year should see my first bunch).

I've personally long nursed a soft spot for the varieties 'Flame' (Purple seedless) and 'Lakemont' (Yellow/White seedless) and have both growing in the garden. Both are moderately early ripeners (Sept/Early Oct) and, theoretically, should be fine to grow outdoors against a sunny wall in the UK.

[Marcher]

Wow, they look great which variety is that ?
Yes I did reduce the number of bunches and the size of the bunch...

The one I posted is Triomphe d'Alsace. Somerset seedless is also another one you could try, it's hard to get hold of but is probably even hardier than Lakemont or Himrod.
Triomphe has quite a lot of seeds though, I wouldn't grow it for an eating grape. Kodrianka that sugar recommended sounds good from what I can find.

So I'd narrow it down to this:

For eating:

Kodrianka
Boskoop Glory - common, small stones with large grapes, quite good at ripening.
Korinka Russkaja - very early ripening, small seedless grape
Lakemont - good quality grapes with a decent size but not as easy to ripen.
Himrod - same as Lakemont
Somerset Seedless - Like lakemont, but easier to ripen.

- out of those Korinka Russkaja and Boskoop will be the best choices. Not sure about Kodrianka, I don't know too much about it.

For making juice, wine and eating (contain more stones, but acceptable eating quality):

Muller-Thurgau
Triomphe d'Alsace - very hardy and very vigorous, although the wine isn't the best in the world and the grapes have quite a few seeds.
Phoenix
Solaris
Rondo - quite good for both wine and eating.

[Pineberry]

I can suggest Kodryanka as well, one of the best grapes ever for me anyway. It is moldovan variety and widely grown in Ukraine. my dad just brought me several cuttings, which we will try to root and hopefully I could offer for swap in a year or two some of it.