Which type of apple tree?

[Paulieb]

Hi all,

I think I've decided I might like to try to grow an apple tree (or two), up against my garage wall - see pic attached. Obviously a trained tree would be best either an espalier or a fan (though I suppose cordons would theoretically be possible.

I'd really appreciate some advice as to what root-stock is suitable.

As you may see from the pic the planting area may be too small, it about 8 inches wide and I'm not sure how deep - could this be enough space for an apple?

I do have 4 trees that I grafted myself recently on a course, which may or may not 'take', but these are possibilities to use here. They are all M27 roots (1 Winter Gem & 3 Bramley's seedling). Or would it be better to buy a half grown tree for this purpose, though obviously more expensive.

For scale the slabs are 2ft sq, and the trees would ideally go where the daffs are coming up. The wall is south facing and has the house for protection from the east.

[orangepippin]

I'd be inclined to put a single tree here, on a semi-vigorous rootstock. Plum or cherry or apricot would enjoy the south-facing aspect and the micro-climate of the wall, and would cover the whole wall after about 5 years. Apples are not quite as big, but a vigorous variety on MM106 or an average vigour on MM111 would also fill the space. However I do think such a premium position demands a premium fruit!

The planting area is obviously a bit of an issue, although if it turns out to be reasonably deep you should be OK.

I'd keep the M27 apple trees for other areas of the garden, as whilst this is a good rootstock for single-tier espaliers, I think it is better used for producing spindlebush trees. They will be great planted close together, maybe a metre apart or so.

[Paulieb]

Cheers for that, thats excellent. I'm open to any type of fruit really as there is already an apple and a plum tree down the bottom of the garden, so apricot sounds interesting.

I'm surprised to hear a Plum/cherry/apricot could spread that far, albeit trained, and over quite a few years. For some reason I was thinking that one tree either side of the window would be better, but will keep my options open.

Fingers crossed all the M27's grow on.

[Paulieb]

I'd keep the M27 apple trees for other areas of the garden, as whilst this is a good rootstock for single-tier espaliers, I think it is better used for producing spindlebush trees. They will be great planted close together, maybe a metre apart or so.

Also....when you say spindlebush, is that the shape of the tree (not heard of it before - only cordon, espalier, standard, etc). Cheers

[FB.]

I'd use MM111 rootstock and choose a medium-vigour variety which is not a tip-bearer.

MM111 will cope better with the uncertain soil - it handles dry, shallow and infertile soil much better than MM106 (in fact, MM111 handles difficult conditions better than almost any other).
MM111 also does well in slightly alkaline soil, which may be the case with all that concrete around it.

I'm not sure how well the M27's would cope. It could be worth trying them and see how they go. But if they fail then replace with MM111.
Bramley is not an easy one to dwarf. Not just because it is very vigorous, but because it bears quite a lot of fruit on tips, and is also reluctant to branch sufficiently on dwarf rootstocks - this being because Bramley (and many other triploids) naturally space the branches at distances suited to really big trees.

With adequate water being my biggest concern, I notice the drainpipe on the shed/garage. It may be possible to exploit that as a virtual irrigation system, to ensure the trees get enough water. The base of walls is quite dry because the wall blocks rainfall from one direction.

[Paulieb]

Thanks FB.

Plenty of food for thought.

My heart says get an apricot and a nice apple in there asap to get them growing otherwise I'll hve lost a year.......
......but my head says wait until next winter when I'll have time to paint the wall first, have a good think about what I want, and also when I'll have time (my wife is due in next 4 weeks, and I'm in the middle of a horticulture diploma)

FB - I've no real preference regarding apple variety, though I do like the tartness of a granny smith. Would you be able to recommend some old rare varieties which would be good against my garage wall on an M111 maybe.

[bramble]

Hi Paul, I notice the yard seems to be paving slabs. Could you not life one or two of these to make your border wider and maybe you would manage to fit in a bigger fruit tree. Just a thought.

[Paulieb]

Hi Paul, I notice the yard seems to be paving slabs. Could you not life one or two of these to make your border wider and maybe you would manage to fit in a bigger fruit tree. Just a thought.

Its a good point which I had thought about, and also as I am planning to relay some of the slabs which are broken, it wouldn't be difficult to do that at the same time. The only problem I could foresee is what is under the slabs.

I could dig it out and replace with decent soil, but if its solid stone or concrete, that might not be so easy, though I could just put the slabs back down.

[FB.]

MM111 rootstock is not widely used, so suppliers are limited - and this limits your choice to whatever they have chosen to graft that season.

I thought apricots were usually supplied on St.Julien A or Pixy rootstock - neither of which will do much good in a dry soil. For dry soil or difficult soil you'd need to consider Brompton or Myrobalan rootstock for stone fruits.

The rootstocks I'm speaking of are vigorous, but where growing conditions are less than ideal they will become dwarfs (and dwarfs may not be of any use at all).

If the slabs aren't concreted, there could be quite a lot of decent soil and rainwater run-off, such that more dwarfing rootstocks would be adequate.

[yummersetter]

I bet a japanese plum would do well there, if your other plum flowers early enough to pollinate it. And a Comice pear on the other side ( thinking of the south facing wall rather than the ground conditions.) How about a fig in a trough if the ground isn't good enough. Or a fan peach.
Would it be possible to paint the wall soon, before you do the planting, - most parents of young children* seem less likely to do things like that after the child has full-on screaming powers. How long would it take to paint that wall?
It seems a real waste of the opportunity to put a cooking apple there, especially a tree like a Bramley. Mine are about twenty ft cubed. Grow something delicious to delight your child* with. (*If you mean your baby is due rather than your wife coming home.)

[FB.]

pear on the other side ( thinking of the south facing wall rather than the ground conditions.)

Quince-rootstocked pears don't cope well with dry soil, nor with alkaline soil (which may leach from the concrete and slabs).
Pyrodwarf and Pyrus communis will cope. The problem with vigorous stocks, as per my earlier post, is not knowing what they might be able to root into under the slabs, or whether any moisture gets down under the slabs.
If the soil is good, deep and damp, Pyrus.communis would be too vigorous.

[Paulieb]

I've been having a scout around at a few sites, and despite lots showing sold out, which is what you'd expect at this time of year (for a 1 yr maiden bare root), there is still quite a good selection.

Keepers nursery have available over 20 types (1yr maiden bare root on M111) which I've never heard of, but I'm liking the looks of (2 of):
Hoary Morning
Roxbury Russet
Sam Young
Flamenco (not available until next year)
Bloody Ploughman (not available until next year).

Will try to have an in depth look at varieties over the next few days.

[orangepippin]

Roxbury Russet is an old American variety, and probably the best of the MM111 varieties you have mentioned, and it and would benefit from the south-facing aspect. However I still think this situation is almost too good to waste on an apple!

A vigorous plum on the St. Julien A rootstock, or a cherry on Colt, or an apricot on St. Julien A or Torinel rootstocks would have no trouble covering this space if you can provide water and space for their roots.

[zazen999]

Have you actually dug down there yet? You might find that doesn't go all the way down but is just a shallow trench. And I'd do a pH test first.

[Paulieb]

Have you actually dug down there yet? You might find that doesn't go all the way down but is just a shallow trench. And I'd do a pH test first.

Yep, thats first on the list before I start ordering any trees, definately going to get out there and dig down. I don't have a soil ph test kit at the moment, but now you mention it, I think it probably is worth doing, especially as any potential trees will hopefully be in there for a good few years.