Which type of apple tree?

[FB.]

A vigorous plum on the St. Julien A rootstock, or a cherry on Colt, or an apricot on St. Julien A or Torinel rootstocks would have no trouble covering this space if you can provide water and space for their roots.

If the soil is dry, St.Juilen A will not be happy - SJA will not grow in my light and slightly alkaline soil.
SJA needs a steady supply of moisture. That may be the case if the roots can go under the slabs and the slabs allow water to drain around their edges. But if it's impermeable concrete it may be very dry under the slabs.
SJA is indeed vigorous in the right situation, but - like MM106 and Quince A - it needs soil which doesn't dry out much.

[Paulieb]

If it turns out that there isn't much room underneath, then would it be any better in terms of production to perhaps try to grow some cordons, compared with 1 or 2 fan trained trees. And would those cordons be okay on the previously mentioned M27 roots, or would I be better with new, different rootstocks.

I'm aiming to dig down at the next opportunity, see what I find, and hopefully remember to take a picture.

[FB.]

If you go for several trees on dwarfing rootstocks and in a shallow soil, you could consider M9.

M9 rootstock is surprisingly drought-resistant considering its small size. It is also one of the most resistant to fungal root diseases, but not resistant to woolly aphid (unlike the MM rootstocks).

M9 is one size up from M27; about 1.5x stronger.
M9 is about half the vigour of MM111, and between one-third and one-half the vigour of a full size apple tree.

Orangepippin will grin at seeing me suggesting M9.

[orangepippin]

Orangepippin will grin at seeing me suggesting M9.

Yes, but you make a good case as ever.

Now, how about planting some M9s yourself!

[FB.]

Yes, but you make a good case as ever.

Now, how about planting some M9s yourself!

I have some M9's: Beauty of Bath, Blenheim Orange and Grenadier.
But I can't get them to grow or fruit as well as I'd like. The Beauty of Bath fruit is very small, much troubled by bitter pit and often drops off long before it is ripe. The Grenadier only manages "fun size" apples despite it supposed to be a big, lumpy cooker. The Blenheim is OK but still nothing remarkable. No doubt the Blenheim is the "least worst" because of being more vigorous than the other two.

In my conditions, there seems to be a curious tipping-point where M27, M9, M26 and MM106 don't do particularly well (weak growing, sickly, poor cropping, bitter pit), but the next step-up to MM111 and M25 is a huge difference - as if they're a completely different species.
At maturity a M26 or MM106 here might make about 6ft. MM111 and M25 twice that size despite being only one step up in the vigour classification. It's as if anything below the seedling-vigour-equivalent threshold will not grow, while anything around or above the seedling-vigour threshold grows reasonably well.

Even if I were planting cordons, I'd look at MM111 or M25 for my soil.*

*
Actually, I have just planted a plum on Brompton, to grow as a 5-6ft high x 7-8ft wide fan.
I'm confident I'll have no problems at all keeping it within its space.

[Paulieb]

If the soil is dry, St.Juilen A will not be happy - SJA will not grow in my light and slightly alkaline soil.
SJA needs a steady supply of moisture. That may be the case if the roots can go under the slabs and the slabs allow water to drain around their edges. But if it's impermeable concrete it may be very dry under the slabs.
SJA is indeed vigorous in the right situation, but - like MM106 and Quince A - it needs soil which doesn't dry out much.

Do you think the same would be true of a cherry on a colt rootstock?

It was raining this evening so my investigative work was limited. I only stuck a fork in, which went in all the way easily. Not the most in depth survey ever, but will have a dig around on the weekend.

SWMBO's favourite apple is Braeburn, and mine is a Granny Smith. Has anyone any recommendations of similar varieties?

[orangepippin]

There are not really any close equivalents of Braeburn, it is a bit of a one-off. However Chivers Delight is somewhat similar.

I've always felt that Sturmer Pippin and Braddick's Nonpareil come fairly close to the dense fruit tangy acidity of a good Granny Smith. They would both be OK in your situation, but Sturmer Pippin needs a long sunny autumn.

[FB.]

Sturmer Pippin needs a long sunny autumn.

Yes, only the autumn climate of East Anglia is usually reliable enough for proper ripening. Sturmer Pippin does best in a dry, warm climate with abundant late-autumn sunshine (a unique feature of East Anglia), a light soil which is not too fertile and a very vigorous rootstock.

It might work well against a warm South-ish-facing wall, in the same way as Victorian kitchen gardens often have pears or figs against their walls.

The following link shows the unique "abundant autumn sunshine" and "low rainfall" which East Anglia usually experiences, and which ripens the likes of Barnack Beauty, D'Arcy Spice, Sturmer Pippin, Norfolk Beefing and other local curiosities to perfection:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/...ukmapavge.html

.

[Paulieb]

Today in my local gc they had U shaped apple trees (granny smith, unknown rootstock, £130), which was quite immpressive

Now, I'm not going to buy one, but was wondering would my rootstock requirements remain the same (I.e. Mm111 for espallier).

[FB.]

Local garden centres will usually not have anything stronger than MM106.

But £130 is a lot to spend on a MM106 given MM106's very poor performance in dry soil (which may be the case up against a wall and where the water can't get below the slabs due to a layer of concrete).

I suggest that if you're going to spend £130 on a likely MM106, that you be certain that there is a steady supply or moisture under those slabs.
MM106 is a strange one in that it can tolerate drought once established, but unfortunately it cannot establish in soil which regularly dries out.
This being because MM106 will grow short fine water-absorbing roots quite readily - but these only extend a few millimetres in the soil.
However, it will not grow "scaffold" roots to explore further if the soil regularly dries out. Without it growing scaffold roots it cannot establish.

Think of fine roots as being like leaves, and scaffold roots as being like branches. Without long-reaching branches and long-reaching scaffold roots, the leaves and fine roots cannot intercept light and water.

[Paulieb]

Thanks again, always spot on with good info.

I'm not really considering spending that much on a tree, but the emphasis was on starting with a 1yr maiden and training into a u shape (as opposed to a fan or esplaier, and I'd not seen or heard of a u (or double u) shape. I've drawn an example on the back of an envelope and taken a photo.....

The one in the gc was only about a metre wide, so that got me wondering would it be possible to fit 3 trees of this form in the space that I have, as the space is more than 3 metres - and also still depending on whats under the ground.

I've got a lot going on at the moment (college/new baby due soon/still lots of other garden jobs), so I think the best senario is to put this on hold until next Oct-Nov. That'll mean I'm not rushing to choose my trees, and I can take time to try to sample a few different 'new' apples, etc.

Thats not to say I'm going to stop the planning, and I'll still be bouncing ideas off you guys, as long as you're still here to bounce off.

[orangepippin]

Your drawing is a form called a Palmette Verrier, and is a variation of the Double-U cordon.

This book tells you how to do it:

La Taille des Arbres Fruitiers mode d'emploi by Beccaletto and Retournard.

It's in French, but available from Amazon UK.

The book recommends M9 rootstock for both U and double-U cordons. However for the UK you could translate that to M26, since the most widely-available M9 rootstock in France is more vigorous than the M9 we use in the UK, and also their better climate means trees get a bit bigger.

[Paulieb]

Having trouble picking a cultivar, and don't think I'll easily be able to try that many.

If either of you 2 had a 4m wall (south facing), or anybody else for that matter.....
Which trees/rootstock combo would you buy if space were not an issue?
What shape would you have (and why)?
Which other fruit would you choose (cherry, plum, etc)?

Now I've decided to wait until the autumn for planting, I'll probably try to get the hard landscapings up to scratch and I've wondered about different planting plans (i.e. a row of 8/9 cordons, or a couple of small apples (fan or U) either side of a cherry, or a mixture).

[orangepippin]

I would go for a single high quality plum or gage on St. Julien rootstock. Probably Opal, or Oullins Gage, or Avalon or Ariel. You can't get better fruits than these in a temperate climate and a south-facing wall brings out the best possible flavours. Train it as a fan, mainly because it needs less effort than other forms!

I might think about an apricot instead, but plums will give more reliable results.

Visually I think a single "form" will look best, so either a single fan, or maybe a row of cordon apples, but not necessarily a mixture.

[yummersetter]

What varieties are the apple and plum you have already ( not including the ones you've grafted)?
I always think you should grow what you can't buy and a ripened pear and peach fit that category and are a bit more reliable than an apricot, though they're picked too early as well when sold in supermarkets here. Strawberries would be good at ground level.
Its interesting that the pear has dropped so far in people's estimation as a tree to grow. Victorian gardeners would have considered that a perfect place for pears and they had so many to chose from. Scotts Orchardist nursery catalogue has 263 pages about pears, cultivation and varieties, compared with 147 about apples. And now you have to find a specialist nursery to get more than ten. The weather at the time of publication was much colder and wetter than even the past twelve months.
I wonder if there will be a heritage pear revival in the way that historic apples have been rediscovered over the past twenty years?