Which two cider apples?

[StephenH]

I've got space in my garden for two more semi-dwarf apple trees on M26 rootstock, and would like to grow two cider apple varieties, or two trees of one variety, if it's a 'vintage', that makes good cider on its own. I already have James Grieve, Brownlees' Russet, Cottenham Seedling, Flower of Kent (alias Isaac Newton's Tree) and Egremont Russet, so they don't need to pollen-partner each other, provided they both partner some of those. (I already make lots of cider from the ones just listed, in good cropping years, but I'd like to make really good stuff as well, from cider apples, and I also want to grow them just because it's a bit unusual in a private garden.)
At the moment, I have provisionally ordered from 'Keeper's Nursery' two bushes of 'Dabinett', for delivery this November, but I've got until October to change my order, so any suggestions from cider-apple experts would be welcome.

[Shroomy]

I've got space in my garden for two more semi-dwarf apple trees on M26 rootstock, and would like to grow two cider apple varieties, or two trees of one variety, if it's a 'vintage', that makes good cider on its own. I already have James Grieve, Brownlees' Russet, Cottenham Seedling, Flower of Kent (alias Isaac Newton's Tree) and Egremont Russet, so they don't need to pollen-partner each other, provided they both partner some of those. (I already make lots of cider from the ones just listed, in good cropping years, but I'd like to make really good stuff as well, from cider apples, and I also want to grow them just because it's a bit unusual in a private garden.)
At the moment, I have provisionally ordered from 'Keeper's Nursery' two bushes of 'Dabinett', for delivery this November, but I've got until October to change my order, so any suggestions from cider-apple experts would be welcome.

Would be intrestead in your reciepe for your cider We have loads of apple trees around us of varing kinds over the last few years we have had enough apples given to us to feel our garden in busell boxes of apples so this year we have investead in a shredder to mash the apples and an 18 ltr fruit press .
Intresting you mention keepers as they are only a couple of miles from me and i have a key plum tree on order from them this year
Thanks
Dave#

[StephenH]

My recipe, if you can call it that, is all my own apples plus as many crab-apples from hedgerow trees as I can get; bung 'em all through my shredder, and then press the juice out with my press and ferment. Two years ago, I got seven gallons of finished cider; in 2012 I got nowt, because it was such a dreadful year; and this year I am cautiously hopeful of 10 galls, because my new apple bushes, planted in 2008, should finally be coming into production (I might've got something off them last year, but the dreadful spring put paid to that: I tried hand-pollenating them, because there were so few bees around, but it didn't help.)

[Vince G]

Bought a Dabinett and a Herefordshire Redstreak from a nursery in Bucks on the way home from Cheltenham Festival in March 2011. They were maidens and have not borne fruit yet, but are full of flowers at the moment and are now 6' tall so hopeful of some fruit this year. Long term project though, but in th meantime I make perfectly acceptable cider from my pal's spare Bramleys!

[StephenH]

You can make good cider from any apples, I think, though it's best to mix up a number of varieties, some sweet and some sharp.
Anyway, I've changed my mind again: I decided I could squeeze a small bush into the front garden, next to my 'Isfahan' quince, so I've gone for 'Tom Putt' (sharp, also useable as a cooker) on MM106, to replace the Bramley, which is also on MM106; Ellis Bitter (bittersweet) to go alongside it, on M26; and Yarlington Mill (bittersweet) on M9 for the front garden. When all my trees are up to full production, in five or six years' time, I'll try making two lots of cider: one from those three mixed together, which should produce a good balance of bitter, sweet and sharp, and one from my other, non-cider, apples.

[orangepippin]

Kingston Black is often recommended alongside Dabinett as a possible single-varietal cider variety.

[StephenH]

My original order was for one Dabinett and one Kingston Black, but I changed it to two Dabinetts (and then changed my mind again, and went for the order described in my previous post) because, according to the books, KB lacks vigour, is disease-prone, and can be a poor cropper. It makes fantastic cider, which is why growers persist with it, I suppose, but the three I've gone for are good as well, and hopefully much less trouble.

[orangepippin]

Vigour can be addressed by using a more vigorous rootstock. Cropping is arguably not an issue if you only have one tree. The disease profile may be different in Herts compared with the west country. But Dabinett cider is very nice also!

[FB.]

KB lacks vigour, is disease-prone, and can be a poor cropper.

What does well for some people doesn't do so well for others. In my experience, until you've actually tried a variety (or rootstock) in your conditions you can't be sure.
Many "troublesome" varieties are only troublesome because they prefer certain growing conditions - healthy and vigorous in certain soils but weak and sickly in other soils. * Some "troublesome" varieties thrive where few others can survive.

Low-vigour varieties can be boosted by using a stronger rootstock. If most of your trees are on MM106, you could use M25 for weak-growing varieties to allow them a chance to keep up with the other trees. Similarly, on dwarf plantings where most trees are on M9, you could use M26 or even MM106 to boost the weak-growing varieties.

-

*
For example: "the books" say that Fiesta is a weak grower and disease-prone; my Fiesta is an extremely vigorous monster rivalling Bramley and is completely disease-free (apart from some bitter pit).
Also "the books" say that Laxton's Epicure is a weak grower, but for me it is another monster which is as vigorous as Bramley.
Edward VII is considered a fairly weak grower, but, in fact, I find it to be an erratic grower: it is very fast-growing in warm years and very slow-growing in cold years - interestingly it is also one of those which are late to flower and recommended for late-frost regions, where its vigour may be low because it prefers a warm climate.

[StephenH]

What does well for some people doesn't do so well for others. In my experience, until you've actually tried a variety (or rootstock) in your conditions you can't be sure.
Many "troublesome" varieties are only troublesome because they prefer certain growing conditions - healthy and vigorous in certain soils but weak and sickly in other soils. * Some "troublesome" varieties thrive where few others can survive.

Low-vigour varieties can be boosted by using a stronger rootstock. If most of your trees are on MM106, you could use M25 for weak-growing varieties to allow them a chance to keep up with the other trees. Similarly, on dwarf plantings where most trees are on M9, you could use M26 or even MM106 to boost the weak-growing varieties.

-

*
For example: "the books" say that Fiesta is a weak grower and disease-prone; my Fiesta is an extremely vigorous monster rivalling Bramley and is completely disease-free (apart from some bitter pit).
Also "the books" say that Laxton's Epicure is a weak grower, but for me it is another monster which is as vigorous as Bramley.
Edward VII is considered a fairly weak grower, but, in fact, I find it to be an erratic grower: it is very fast-growing in warm years and very slow-growing in cold years - interestingly it is also one of those which are late to flower and recommended for late-frost regions, where its vigour may be low because it prefers a warm climate.

All very good points, for which thanks, but I think I'll stick with Yarlington Mill, Tom Putt and Ellis Bitter, since no books describe them as troublesome, whereas most do say that KB is. While it might indeed do well in my particular conditions, especially if I ordered it on a more vigorous stock, I'd prefer not to risk it.
Thanks, everyone, for all the advice offered.

[FB.]

Slightly off-topic but I should have added, regarding Fiesta, that it seems as if Fiesta likes alkaline/chalk soils* and is quite happy with low-fertility soil*, and likes warm dry climates*, but despises acid/clay soils or cool/wet regions or soils which are too fertile.
It's probably caused by a variation in nutrient uptake depending on soil pH and the plant metabolism in different climates.

*
Of course, it's no use having a variety tolerant of certain conditions if the rootstock doesn't like the conditions. Varieties which are triploid are often tolerant of a very wide range of challenging conditions and often more disease-resistant. I grow a lot of triploids (or presumed but not scientifically proven triploids) for that reason.

[StephenH]

I've changed my mind again. I'm reprieving 'Bramley's Seedling', putting 'Tom Putt' next to it, on M26, and 'Dabinett' in the front garden, also on M26. I've just changed the order from T.P. and Yarlington Mill, because Y.M. was only available on M9, dwarfing, and I have room in the front garden for, and would prefer, an M26 tree. Also, Y.M. apparently has a marked bienniel habit, and Dabinett is self-fertile, which may be an advantage in that situation - not all that far from the back-garden apples (Brownlees' Russet and James Grieve are compatible pollen-partners that I've already got, but with the house in between. Also, Dabinett, though a good cropper, according to the website, is of low vigour, so will be relatively small for the rootstock, p0resumably, and truth to tell when it reaches full size it will be a bit of a squeeze.

[StephenH]

I've just added 'Ribston Pippin' to my order. I'll remove the 'Bramley' after all, to make room for three trees, but instead of just discarding it, will transplant it to either the waste ground next to my allotment (better check with the council first, I suppose), or to the 'Rough Patch' owned by the local conservation group of which I'm a member. there are other apple trees at both locations, though whether there are the requisite two pollen-partners I know not. However, it doesn't matter too much.
I like the sound of R.P. - it's an old English variety (1707), which is what I want in my apples, it's flavourful, and it's supposed to be richer in Vitamin C than almost all other apples. I've got two suitable pollen-partners. The only downside is that it's yet another mid-to-late season apple, like all my others, more or less. It would make more sense really to go for an early, but, tempted though I was to go for 'Devonshire Quarrenden' after all, I plumped for R.P. in the end. (I don't know if I've got pollen partners for D.Q.)

P.S. - I know R.P. isn't a cider apple! The two ciders I've ordered are 'Dabinett' and 'Tom Putt'.

[orangepippin]

Ribston Pippin is allegedly an old English variety, but it seems likely it was raised from saplings or seedlings imported from France.

[StephenH]

Fair point, but if Sir Bradley Wiggins, who was born in Belgium, can count as British, I think Ribston Pippin can, as well!