Citrus tree leaf problem

[Ben1030]

Hi

I purchased two 1 year old Citrus trees (Citrus lemon and panama orange) around April last year. They arrived quite small but soon started sending lots of shoots and tripled in size. I left the plants on a south facing windowsill away from a radiator in a room with the heating off most of the time, I did have the fire on occasionally. I tried my best not to let them fully dry out but also took note not to overwater. From around December the appearance of the leaves has been slowing deteriorating, they feel hard and dry with some curling. It is worth noting that neither plant has lost any old leaves as yet, just a couple from the new growth. Both are sending out lots of new growth with purple leaves – which I understand to be good? The last of the new growth last year was, and still is yellow/light green. I recently bought a lime which looked so much healthier. A small number of leaves on the lime are now starting to go a little hard and curled.







They are both potted with John Innes No3, I was feeding them with a general fruit and veg liquid feed, ive recently switched to a citrus feed. They were both re-potted in April this year with no improvement. The room is quite dry, I have only started misting them last week.

I don’t know if its related but the leaves on my outdoor trees aren’t looking too great either . They are fed with the same water and feed.http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...est_72142.html


Thanks



Ben

[starloc]

Purple leaves on new growth are normal for lemon trees, the curled leaves could be many things

Have you checked them for spider mites?, Ive had leaves look like that with spider mites, check for tiny webs or white or red dust on the leaves, usually on the bottom of the leaves
The fire you have had on, is it a gas fire? , If i light a gas fire even once in the room with citrus in the leaves go like that on mine, eventually they fall off
It could be root damage ,most citrus die within about 6 months of buying due to lack of oxygen caused by overwatering and/or the type of compost used
Even though the compost used may grow the plants its not good for them, you need something that drys out very quickly, you can even grow them in the 1/2 inch bark chips used for orchids, on the top of the pot its best not to put anything as it holds moisture in, and never leave a saucer under the pot , if you do to catch drips make sure the water can not touch the pot by lifting the pot out of the saucer on something, the pot must never sit in water
The misting of the leaves, use water, not fertilliser unless its one that says you can mist the plant with it ( some burns the leaves ), the same some fertilisers can burn the roots so its best to use the citrus one, make sure it contains micronutrients listed on the tub such as magnesium etc , some dont and citrus need the micronutrients more than some plants

At a guess i would think that it is probably a lack of air humidity and the gas fire , citrus dont like to be in the house but need to be in the UK for ease of care they always look ill after the winter if kept in a warm house

[stelladays]

I am no expert but could it be the compost, i potted my lime,lemon and orange on in westland citrus compost and all are flowering and they are just stood near patio doors at the moment.
Like i say i am no expert just saying how i got on

Cheers

Ken

[Ben1030]

Thanks for your replies.

I’ve had a good look at the leaves and can’t find any evidence of pests as yet. I had a quick google search on the compost used and most sites recommend it. I might be tempted to change to citrus compost when I re-pot in the spring though. I am guilty of leaving a little water in the saucer it sits in when I water .

The fire in the room is gas! I’ve only recently moved into the property and started using the gas fire around December time, the same time as the leaves started drooping. Why does the gas affect the plants so much, is it humidity related? If they were behind closed curtains would this help? If this is the cause is there anything I can now do to improve the situation

Thanks

Ben

[roitelet]

It could be the gas which dries out the atmosphere. If you put them in a large saucer full of pebbles and then top up with water and stand the plant on top, don't leave them standing in water, as the water evaporates it will increase the humidity. If you put them behind the curtains at this time of year they will be fine but in the winter it will be too cold for them. In the summer, if we get one , they can go outside in half shade.

Best of luck

[starloc]

Ive no idea why citrus are so affected by gas but even a small amount of heat by gas makes them realy ill, electric heaters dont do this , wood burning fires and methanol burning open fires seem fine as well

gas must produce something that affects citrus plants when it burns, maybe from burning the smell they put in the gas , a lot of bioks on citrus say never to burn gas, I tried and killed a few plants, gas like most things produces water when burned so it shouldnt be lack of humidity due to that, but inside the house the humidity is usualy very low

[AkionTotocha]

The best way to water a citrus is to put it in a bucket, pour rain water on it (Unless you don't live in a hard water area) and leave it sitting in the water for 10/15 mins or so. Then tip the water out and make sure any other water that drips out is also tipped away. They like moist roots, but don't like to sit in water.

But that's probably not the problem, and is just general lemon care advice.

It's probably the gas fire

And when you repot it, be careful. Lemon trees are spiky little swines. I sat in the passenger seat with our plant sitting on my lap, and it was so painful. And then after the flowers made me and the car smell like wee-wee

[boatsman]

Regarding lemons: they have long sharp spikes on the trunk and the branches. I just cut off the spikes with a pair of seccateurs. I have had the problem with the leaves yellowing which I solved by watering tover the leaves and around the base of the tree with chelated iron dissolved in water. On another tree I got rid of greenfly or some other sucking insect with a spray of a teaspoon of washing up liquid in a litre of water which doesn't affect the fruit. Once I had a problem with leaf curl on my lemon tree and I used something (I don't remember what it was offhand) that I injected into the ground around the roots of the tree. I think it took about a week to react. Citrus trees need to be outdoors and will easily survive heavy rain but won't tolerate too much cold. I've had a grapefruit tree covered in heavy snow. The only damage being that the weight of the accumulated snow broke a large branch and it was several years before the tree produced fruit again.

[starloc]

I fell out of one of my lemon trees one time and had to be rescued by my brother and some secateurs.....the thorns on mine are around 2 inch long , I had climbed up to collect lemons and slipped
Those thorns are leathal but look better left on, not all varietys have them once mature, nearly all citrus have thorns when immature

Grapefruit are very cold hardy once mature there are quite a few outdoor grapefruits in the UK in sheltered places and grown from seed, the fruit doesnt ripen well though as its not warm enough, like oranges they need summer warmth to get the flavour and sweetness and cold to gain the bitterness, without both they just dont taste right , lemons are best for the UK as they dont need the heat and we get enough cold to ripen them up so we dont have those awful greenish part ripened lemons

[AkionTotocha]

How do you know when lemons are ripe/how to ripen them?

Ours go between bright yellow, and yellow with green dots(? like how citrus skin has the little craters, well the craters are green and the space around them is yellow). But they're always rock hard, so I'm assuming they're not ripe. Any tips?

[starloc]

lemons ripen with cold weather, the yellow ones have more bitterness, green bits on them more sweetness, they are very hard when ripe much much harder than shop bought ones, shop ones are softer as they are dry inside, they take some time to grow and ripen though I often leave them about a year, some longer, if they start to go soft they are over ripe and will start to loose the bitterness, if they freeze they loose all there juice and go very soft
A way to tell till you get used to it is buy a shop bought lemon of the same sort of size and feel the weight, a fresh lemon should be heavier size for size

[Ben1030]

*Update on the citrus*

The orange seems to be looking worse and has lost the odd leaf. Theres plenty of new shoots growing but once mature, the leaves dont look very healthy with most falling. Could this be down to a nutrient deficiency?

Ive taken a few more pictures.
1 of the mature leaves


Curlved & Yellow/light green new growth with bad tip (now removed)


New growth with light brown patches on leaf


Thanks

Ben

[starloc]

Are you spraying anything on the leaves? , try misting them with water for a bit, the tips of the leaves looks more like too much fertiliser , If you have drops ( not fine mist ) on the leaves keep it out of strong sun till it has dried, fine mist is ok in sun

On the pot you have stones, is it growing in that or are they a cover, if a cover to make it look better take them off and let the compost dry out and warm up , its best not to put anything ontop of the compost

Between watering you can let the top inch or so of the compost dry out to dust dryness and it will not hurt the plant, just watch for it to start wilting before watering if you let it dry out a lot, just dry at the top is best, doing this ensures air can get to the roots, especially important in a soil or peat based compost

It is usual for leaves to drop as the plant starts to grow new growth, they should constantly loose leaves here and there, being an evergreen, but more are lost as it starts to grow in late spring / early summer

What brand of fertiliser is it you are using?

When the leaves fall off , does the petiole ( leaf stalk ) fall off as well or does it stay on the plant?

Are you putting them outside in the day? ( too cold at night still ) but in the day they will like it , just keep them from direct sun for a few days so they get used to it

[Ben1030]

I’ve recently started misting the leaves with tap water, this doesn’t seem had any affect on the condition positive or negative. I normally mist in the evening after work, a couple time a week.

The stones have been recently put on top of the soil as an attractive cover. Would you recommend never covering the soil for potted citrus?

I’m started using the baby bio citrus feed two months ago. I’ve been having problems with the citrus since December time.
Baby Bio Citrus Food - 175ml from Homebase.co.uk

The when the few leaves have fallen, the petiole has remained on the plant. Hopefully this is good? Having no garden I am unable to place them outside so they remain on a south facing windowsill all year round.

Thanks

Ben

[starloc]

If the leaves fall and the petiole stays its not good, if the whole lot falls its natural leaf loss, the petiole staying is the tree is stressed about something
The curled leaves will not change back to normal with change in conditions , but they still work, if you keep it humid they may stay on the tree and not drop
If the roots are a bit unhappy then the misting the leaves will keep the humidity in them as its not being supplied as much by the tree
During the winter it is usual to have citrus problems, it becomes easier as you get used to them , but its still not easy to get through the winter without problems
I would never, ever cover the citrus compost, it needs to breathe and dry out,constantly damp roots will make the leaves fall off
If they are on the windowsill, can you keep the window open a bit? , I have some i keep in the house and they are never happy without a window open, even in the winter I open the window ( unless its very sub zero ) at night and then they are fine , they need humidity, misting helps but is not as good as fresh air for them
The best citrus feed i have had was sold mail order by `the citrus center` they have a website, it is the best one , another good one is the one by `Global orange groves` , the problem with citrus is that it needs a lot of nutrients and unlike most other plants they are very sensitive to the levels of micronutrients, a lot of citrus fertilisers do not have the micronutrients
Once a leaf is damaged due to incorrect fertliser or humidity, it will usually not recover or change back to the correct colour, but they will not get any worse if conditions improve
The thing they realy realy like is very free draining compost that drys between watering, and watering correctly , let them dry out very dry to an inch down in the pot, then use water ( not ice cold , but not warm....just about 20 deg C and ) mix the fertiliser in and lower the pot into it, when its soaked through and the bubbles stop, take the pot out and see how quick the water pours out , if it slowly trickles and stays wet for days, you need to change the compost, you want it to rush out of the pot rapidly, the sort of growing medium used for orchids mixed with some moss is perfect, or a 50/50 mix of your compost you have and perlite
Check you have a decent amount of holes in the pot, the correct pots have holes in the lower edges at the sides so they can drain quickly
Root temperature is important, sun on the compost ( not the stones ) will warm it up and then the tree will grow, the roots need to be warm, this is why they die in the winter they realy need a heater mat to keep them a bit warm in cold weather if they get any light