Where are all the amateur apple breeders?

[boundtothesoil]

Can scientific analysis confirm the parents of an apple?

Yes, provided the DNA profiles of the parents are in the data bank. However, there must be occasions where an old variety has a parent no longer in existence, for which no data exist. Then, I guess you are looking for close relatives.

[Bane]

Yes, provided the DNA profiles of the parents are in the data bank. However, there must be occasions where an old variety has a parent no longer in existence, for which no data exist. Then, I guess you are looking for close relatives.

Ah, great. Thanks.

And just to extend the question, if the grandparents are in the data bank can they be identified - even if the parents are mysteries?

[boundtothesoil]

The all-too-common fate of seedlings from common varieties: death by powdery mildew only several weeks after germination:

This is interesting to me, as my trees generally don't suffer much from powdery mildew - probably a a result of being so wet here in west Wales. However, I've kept a look out for it on the seedlings I produced from crosses made in 2010 and 2011. Out of around 150 highly cared-for offspring, I've had around four that are totally runted out by powdery mildew and another twenty with symptoms affecting one or two young shoots. In the latter case I tend to remove the infected leaves and hope for the best.

[boundtothesoil]

And just to extend the question, if the grandparents are in the data bank can they be identified - even if the parents are mysteries?

I don't know, but I'd imagine so! You need a real expert on this, or check out a decent internet source on DNA profiling. I'd be interested to know.

[FB.]

Ah, great. Thanks.

And just to extend the question, if the grandparents are in the data bank can they be identified - even if the parents are mysteries?

Yes.

The very simplest way to get an idea of ancestry connections is to look at the incompatibility alleles.
Offspring should inherit one from each parent.
So the apple variety "Discovery" inherited allele 1 from its father "Beauty of Bath" (1,4) and allele 24 from its mother "Worcester Pearmain" (2,24).
Discovery (1,24) was then crossed with Golden Delicious (2,3) to create Scrumptious. It therefore follows that Scrumptious must have either 1 or 24 from Discovery, combined with either 2 or 3 from Golden Delicious.
So if Scrumptious' parentage is correct, Scrumptious should be one of the following four combinations: 1,2 - 1,3 - 2,24 - 3,24.
It should also be found to be only a partial pollinator (50% effective) of either of its parents. It may also be only a partial pollinator of its grandparents.
In fact, if Scrumptious turned out to be 2,24 it'd be almost completely incompatible with its Worcester Pearmain grandmother which is also 2,24.

Cox's Orange Pippin has alleles 5,9. Due to the extensive breeding from Cox, a large number of modern apples carry one or both of those alleles. Meridian, Jupiter, Suntan and Kidd's Orange Red carry both the 5 and the 9 (and one extra in the case of the triploids) and this makes pollination difficult between those varieties and others of the same family.

The "old timer" Gravenstein is 1,13,20 - a very unusual set of alleles suggesting a rather different ancestry than the 2,3 Golden Delicious or the 5,9 Cox or the 2,24 Worcester Pearmain.
Different ancestry is good because it means diversity - and diversity means different ways in which a variety may have disease resistance mechanisms.

Spartan is 9,10.
McIntosh is 10,25.
Red Delicious is 9,28.

So Spartan would appear to have links with both of the other prominent "Red" apples, although it would appear that McIntosh and Red Delicious are not closely related because of their completely different alleles. In fact, Spartan was recently proven not to be of the parentage listed by its breeding programme notes! Ooops!
However, it's possible that Spartan (9,10) was Red Delicious (9,28) x McIntosh (10,25).

[Feral007]

Oh dear, just read thru the growing from seed.
Good thing I'm not too easily daunted by facts. I'm happily planting all apple and pear cores around the farm.

Keeps my son happy. Because when Mum is happily planting cores, she's not hassling with other things!

I'm hoping for the best, expecting the worst. And figure that since I've given birth to 3 fruit bats, I'll have plenty of cores, and if even one grows to a fruiting tree then I'm ahead.

We do have some local apple trees that are growing wild. This year was bad for fruit so I didn't get a chance to rob the trees. Next year I'm hoping for more rain, and a bit of time to gather the fruit.

My mind (very unscientifically) is thinking that anything that survives here has to have some good genes to throw at their seeds.

And if something grows from seed then I've got some chance of it surviving. I know FB, you've talked of them dying at two years or so, BUT since they are free, they are a cheaper alternative to me planting a purchased grafted tree, and losing it. Just looking at budgets vs conditions vs survival rates.

I'm also asking a company in Tassie about some ungrafted seedlings. They sell all their stock on dwarf and semi dwarf graft stock. I thought I'd probably try a couple of their regular trees. But I did ask them if I could buy some ungrafted apple trees.
They're answer is they want to talk to me about it by phone.

I'm pretty sure they're going to dazzle me with facts and data, but I'd still like to try.

[StephenH]

Incompatibility alleles, eh? Well, you learn summat new every day. I suppose that's an evolutionary device to prevent too much botanical incest and consequent inbreeding!

[DuncanM]

This is an incredibly interesting thread and although I was initially interested from a main perspective of scented wood to burn, I think next year I'll change tact and attempt to control some of the pollination myself. Does anyone have any useful suggestions of combinations I could try from my stock? I'd be interested in either cider apples or eaters (got enough multi-use apples for cookers).

• Kingston Black
• Cox
• Tom Putt
• Dabinett
• Worcester Pearmain
• Michelin
• Browns
• Katy
• Morgan Sweet
• Malini fresco - Lubera branded
• Rubinette
• Two "named" apple trees bought from Focus in 2011, I can't remember their name, but I've certainly never been able to find any information about them. Will update this when I remember.

Thanks,
Duncan

[RedThorn]

Agreed mate very interesting thread.

It's one of the main reasons this forum is a success. Friendly, helpful people, with a wealth of knowledge from a broad widely varied base

[boundtothesoil]

Does anyone have any useful suggestions of combinations I could try from my stock? I'd be interested in either cider apples or eaters (got enough multi-use apples for cookers).

• Kingston Black
• Cox
• Tom Putt
• Dabinett
• Worcester Pearmain
• Michelin
• Browns
• Katy
• Morgan Sweet
• Malini fresco - Lubera branded
• Rubinette
• Two "named" apple trees bought from Focus in 2011, I can't remember their name, but I've certainly never been able to find any information about them. Will update this when I remember.

That's a diverse list. It's a game of roulette and the odds are long! I don't know much about cider apple varieties, but as far as eaters go, there are a few points listed below that I keep in mind when choosing what to cross. I should stress that these are just my personal likes and dislikes, and some would not be on a proper objective list of criteria for parental selection:-
1. Don't cross varieties that are closely related in terms of parentage (e.g. Katy and Worcester Pearmain).
2. Use a variety that isn't self fertile as the female parent in a cross. This means that if it sets fruit it really is likely to be the result of your selected male pollinator.
3. Cross pest/disease susceptible varieties with disease/pest resistant varieties.
4. Don't use tripoids (e.g. Tom Putt) as male parents - dud pollen.
5. Don't use triploids as female parents if you want to maximise the number of viable seeds from the cross.
6. Use Triploids as female parent for the reasons FB gives elsewhere.
7. Cross modern commercial varieties with old varieties having either outstanding flavour or robust disease/pest resistance.
8. Use varieties that produce large sized apples when crossing with varieties producing small sized apples.
9. Cross russets with russets and with tasty non-russets.
10. Cross earlies with earlies, lates with earlies and lates with lates.
11 Avoid crossing within the Cox's, Golden Delicious, Braeburn, Gala pack as this is where the commercial breeders rule.
12. Try to pick female parents from trees that yield well year on year, to maximise your chances of fruit setting etc.
13. Include really odd variety combinations just for fun!

I'd check the parentage of your varieties.

[FB.]

7. Cross modern commercial varieties with old varieties having either outstanding flavour or robust disease/pest resistance.

OK, so let's take this to the next level.

Which varieties do each of us worship for their outstanding resistance to certain pests or diseases? Especially which pests or diseases keep us awake at night in our local area and which varieties help us sleep soundly by not having to worry.

Which varieties do each of us curse for their susceptibility to various problems (pests, diseases or other disorders such as bitter pit, mouldy core, water-core etc).

[yummersetter]

One of the most bomb-proof apple trees I have is Morgan Sweet. An obvious triploid, the ancient trees were huge ( non-experts thought they were perry pears) till I brought them down to a more reasonable size, when they started throwing out new branches as if they were two year olds. They are all totally hollow, full of mistletoe and nesting birds and at present are a mass of blossom. No diseases or pests worth worrying about, a massive crop in alternative years, maybe twenty wheelbarrowsful of apples each. The drawbacks are that they're biennial and the fruit taste like a bathsponge soaked in sugar syrup

[yummersetter]

The only 'sick' apple I have is Laxton's Superb - a fifty year old tree produces the most delicious apples but its unusual to have more than one in a hundred without scab. I bought a new one about fifteen years ago and planted elsewhere but its also more scabby than the other varieties - it was also from Scotts so it may have been their strain that was the cause. Lovely juice though.
The sort of thing I grumble about is lack of flavour (Red Delicious), small size ( Court of Wick) and hurling all the fruit on the ground the week before I intend to carefully pick them for storage ( Claygate Pearmain, Ribston Pippin).
Delicious, trouble, bug & disease free apples here in Somerset are Redsleeves, Red Windsor, Oaken Pin, Orleans Reinette, Kidds OR, Golden Russet.

[orangepippin]

In my view, if you are starting out today then the only objective for a home apple-breeding programme would be flavour - even at the expense of disease-resistance. A bomb-proof variety which has no flavour might be technically interesting, but if you just want quantity rather than quality it is surely easier to go to the local supermarket.

Things were obviously different 300 years ago, when reliability and productivity were probably more important than flavour, since apples were an important staple food.

A well-flavoured apple with good disease-resistance would be even better of course.

Having said that, and perhaps contradicting myself slightly, it would be interesting to explore the possibilities in the more un-charted areas of the apple genome. FB has mentioned that a high proportion of apple varieties depend on a relatively small number of the possible apple alleles. These are the alleles found in Cox, Golden Delicious, and Red Delicious - and are associated with some of the most outstanding apple flavours. You will be following a well-trodden path if you start with any of these. There could be potential in other combinations, and by virtue of their rarity they *might* be more disease-resistant (although this is not guaranteed, anymore than all offspring of Cox are disease-prone).

[boundtothesoil]

Which varieties do each of us worship for their outstanding resistance to certain pests or diseases? Especially which pests or diseases keep us awake at night in our local area and which varieties help us sleep soundly by not having to worry.

I've realised during the few months I've been a member of this forum that the varieties I grow which are relatively pest/disease resistant, here in west Wales, seem in many cases to be quite the reverse when grown in other parts of the UK. I guess that part of the reason for this is climatic, plus the fact this area has never been a major apple growing region, with few if any orchards other than the handful of trees attached to many of the traditional farms.

I don't spray and I grow mainly older commercial/popular varieties from the 20th century rather than real 'heritage' varieties, so my main pests are codling moth and aphids, and my main diseases are, first and foremost, scab, followed by canker. My most resistant varieties are:-

Beauty of Bath (no codling moth, no diseases).
Lord Lambourne (no codling moth, a little localised canker)
Discovery (a little codling moth and a little canker)
Annie Elizabeth (no pests or diseases)
Sunset (no pests or diseases)
Winston (no pest or diseases)
James Grieve (no pest, modest scab)

My most pest/disease prone varieties are:-
Ellison's Orange (terrible codling moth)
Bramley's (moderate codling moth and scab)
Tom Putt (terrible codling moth and scab >50% fruit affected by both)

Another significant difference in growing experience for me compared with others further east is in the performance of different rootstocks. When I was planting up, I was interested in comparing M26 and MM106, as I had no idea which would prove most successful under my soil/climate conditions. Ten or so years on, I would say that MM106 is generally proving superior to M26, particularly in terms of growth and canker resistance. Some varieties, such as Adam's Pearmain and Charles Ross grown on M26 have barely reached 6 ft tall after ten years. Furthermore, most of the trees I have on M26 have developed burr roots and swollen trunks at the graft/scion union (trees purchased from a variety of good nurseries), whilst none of those on MM106 have. Even with home grafted trees, I'm noticing that those on MM106 establish quicker and more strongly than those on M26.