Where are all the amateur apple breeders?

[FB.]

Yes, it's quite different "over here" on the opposite (dry) side of the UK.

Beauty of Bath is one of the least troublesome of the early apples, apart from dropping its fruit long before it is edible - a problem in most years until the tree is fully grown.

Discovery is troubled by codling moth - never eat a Discovery without cutting it into quarters first.

Winston isn't resistant to scab; in wet years a lot of the fruit is damaged.

James Grieve - lost it to canker.

Annie Elizabeth: mostly trouble-free.

Ellison's Orange - the most severely attacked by codling moth. Also prone to nasty outbursts of canker requiring major disfiguring surgery to keep the tree alive.

Bramley: some scab in wet years but other pests and diseases are not a major problem.

MM106 and M26: not much difference in size between the two. Both fall into the semi-dwarf class here.

MM106 seems to make the variety more prone to disease, no doubt because MM106 doesn't do well here in the light sandy soil and mild low-rainfall climate but that's a known factor with MM106 which nurseries don't want to tell people because MM106 is so cheap to produce; other rootstocks are not as cheap or easy so there's less profit margin!
From the weather patterns here in recent years and the way MM106 is very stop-start in its behaviour, I'd say that MM106 needs at least 80cm of rainfall per year to behave normally and it prefers cooler/damper soil (but not waterlogged).
My 50-55cm of rainfall causes MM106 to runt-out and become sickly unless it has a very vigorous scion grafted.
Many MM106 trees have died in East Anglia because their roots will not grow in the dry soils of East Anglian summers; the trees fail to establish and in drier soils their slow-growing roots are easily are outcompeted by grass and weeds. With adequate rainfall MM106 can hold its own against weeds from day one and is an equal in vigour to MM111.

Most of my MM106's produce lots of burrknots as a result of their desperation "gasping for water" in the usually-dry summers. Unfortunately these burrknots further expose the trees to crown and root rots - diseases to which MM106 is very susceptible. M26 produces less burrknots than MM106, being more tolerant of dry soil than MM106 (both rootstocks being semi-dwarf here). Curiously, though, in damper soil my M26's do produce burrknots on the lower trunk.
I plant all my trees with the graft at ground level to avoid cankers and root rots entering burrknots. It also improves anchorage. I accept the risk of scion rooting because no amount of vigour is too much in my soil/climate - good luck to my trees if they manage to scion-root!

[orangepippin]

Many MM106 trees have died in East Anglia because their roots will not grow in the dry soils of East Anglian summers; the trees fail to establish and in drier soils their slow-growing roots are easily are outcompeted by grass and weeds. With adequate rainfall MM106 can hold its own against weeds from day one and is an equal in vigour to MM111.

One obvious solution would be to water the trees more. From my own experience in the last few wet summers I have concluded that I had not waterered sufficiently (because they looked so much healthier in the wet years), and this year I have been deliberately watering when previously I would not have done. In other words it seems true to say that MM106 is not as drought-resistant as M9 or MM111 ... but the solution is simple, give it a bit more water.

Also, in the case of newly-planted trees, failure to water sufficiently is the most common cause of trees dying in the first year. Failure to keep the planting area weed-free is often a contributory factor.

In other words, in East Anglia you have the benefit of lots of sunshine, and you can "turn on" the rain whenever you need it (albeit at a cost of higher water bills). In contrast growers in the wetter west can't "turn on" the sunlight. It would be interesting to see how many of the disease problems you are experiencing on MM106 could be resolved by watering.

[FB.]

One obvious solution would be to water the trees more. ... but the solution is simple, give it a bit more water.

Also, in the case of newly-planted trees, failure to water sufficiently is the most common cause of trees dying in the first year. Failure to keep the planting area weed-free is often a contributory factor.

I want "plant-and-forget" trees which are my servants, and which earn their keep by giving me something in return for giving them a home.
I don't want "pet trees" which require lots of loving care and end up being time-consuming and money-consuming liabilities.

With MM111 or M25 I can just lift up a lump of turf, dig a pit, chuck the tree in, shovel the soil back in the hole, put all the turf back (right up to the trunk), then leave the tree to get on with it; no after-care required.

[FB.]

With the threat of hosepipe bans in early 2012, I would have been deeply concerned for the wellbeing of my trees if I had MM106 half-standards. However, with my half-standards being MM111 or M25, I was actually looking forward to a severe drought in order to kill-off some of the hopeless MM106's because I can't bring myself to dig them out and burn them; I'd rather they died than were killed.
In a couple of years I plan to remove all the MM106's - they'll be free to anyone who wants to give them a try.

As I'd said before: the tree below is a MM111 which was planted as a maiden whip in the drought years around 2010, straight into an unenriched soil, with grass right up to the trunk, and in a spot where a MM106 had previously died from crown rot. As the picture shows: the tree is growing well despite the grass competition and shallow, infertile, dry soil.
The tree required no care at all to grow well. Job's a good 'un.
Can't be bothered fussing around with MM106's when I can plant a worry-free, minimal-effort MM111. If I had Western-UK-like rainfall I'd be OK with MM106 as it is a match for MM111 if the soil moisture is adequate and not prone to drying for weeks on end in summer.
The second picture shows the post-pruning removal of the leader (the leader having been retained to widen the branch angles).

[FB.]

M25-rootstock Court Pendu Plat 2-3 years old, planted as a maiden whip straight into the grass and unenriched soil - the grass had been lightly compost-mulched just before the picture was taken because it was difficult keeping the grass alive in summer; often areas would die and not recover!

[FB.]

Compare to the above 2-3yr-old MM111 un-named variety and M25 Court Pendu Plat with the ten-year-old Laxton's Superb MM106 (pic 1 below) and Egremont Russet MM106 (pic 2 below). Both of the MM106's will have been watered about once per week in order to keep them alive - but too much watering and they get crown rot.

[FB.]

Two pictures of Ashmead's Kernel apples growing on MM106.

1. Bad bitter pit on apples grown in a normal year - the kind where MM106 struggles.

2. Much less (not externally visible) bitter pit on apples grown last year - when the extreme wet weather allowed the MM106's to behave more normally.

The more vigorous rootstocks - especially M25 - don't suffer more than a trace of bitter pit in my soil, even with varieties known to be prone to it. On the other hand, varieties not officially noted for bitter pit get it in my soil if they're on MM106.

[boundtothesoil]

Most of my MM106's produce lots of burrknots as a result of their desperation "gasping for water" in the usually-dry summers. Unfortunately these burrknots further expose the trees to crown and root rots - diseases to which MM106 is very susceptible. M26 produces less burrknots than MM106, being more tolerant of dry soil than MM106 (both rootstocks being semi-dwarf here). Curiously, though, in damper soil my M26's do produce burrknots on the lower trunk.

I like the sound of this explanation. Hence, under my pretty wet conditions, I'm getting burrknots on M26 rather than MM106.

Below is a photo of one of my classic M26 burrknots (Adam's Pearmain)


I tend to plant my trees with the graft union quite high above the soil because it gets so wet.

Nutritionally, I treat my MM106 and M26 trees identically, and have no reason to believe that my soil is unthrifty with respect to nutrient availability. Hence, I don't believe that M26 should have problems obtaining sufficient nutrients.

[FB.]

I
Nutritionally, I treat my MM106 and M26 trees identically, and have no reason to believe that my soil is unthrifty with respect to nutrient availability. Hence, I don't believe that M26 should have problems obtaining sufficient nutrients.

In normal soil and with plenty of rainfall/water availability, I'd expect M26 to be about three-quarters the vigour of MM106 - with some variation due to the influence of the scion vigour.
In my soil there's not much difference - except that in the occasional wet year MM106 has more vigour.

[StephenH]

Slightly off-topic, but not completely, since it's about the arrival of new apple varieties: the other way a new variety can arise is by mutation - 'sports'. My 'Flower of Kent' (alias 'Isaac Newton's Tree') has all but finished flowering, apart from a few petals here and there, hanging on grimly - and three unopened buds, all on one spur. While I realise it's unlikely, especially on a variety as old as FoK (recorded 1628) (I believe that sports usually occur on newer varieties, before their genes have had a chance to settle down, but stand to be corrected), it's at least worth marking the spur concerned with a label, to see if the apples on it exhibit any other differences from the rest, and whether it flowers later than the rest of the tree next year. Mind you, the three buds may not set fruit, because by the time they finally open, there may be no nearby pollen for them. FoK is a fairly late flowerer as it is: an even later-flowering sport would be comparable with 'Court Pendu Plat', which is famous for the extreme lateness of its flowering.

[FB.]

While I realise it's unlikely, especially on a variety as old as FoK (recorded 1628) (I believe that sports usually occur on newer varieties, before their genes have had a chance to settle down, but stand to be corrected)

I doubt that genes need to "settle down" - they should be most stable when a variety is new, then the older it gets and the more trees that are produced, the more likely one of them is a mutation.

The most likely reason "modern" varieties have more mutations is because they are the varieties being most widely planted in large numbers. The more trees there are of a certain variety, the more likely the one-in-a-million mutant will have its number come up. Quite likely the potent chemicals sprayed on modern trees encourage mutations. Let's face it: the chemicals are killers of certain organisms, so may have minor effects on others.
Certainly with humans, a certain dose of antibiotics will kill the bacteria causing their infection, but too much can cause damage (sometimes permanent). Many antibiotics are banned for use in pregnancy, as are many other medications.

I also understand that some "modern" variants have been produced by using radiation or cancer-causing chemicals to cause mutations.

[FB.]

The chemical called "colchicine" has been used to mutate apples. As have X-rays.
Run a few searches - nasty stuff.

[StephenH]

I remember a documentary about Chernobyl a few years ago: they found grotesquely mutated plants of all sorts. However, my apples don't get any nasty chemicals anywhere near them, nor radiation, so this, if it is a sport, must just be a spontaneous mutation. I doubt if it is, though. Some flowers have got to be the last on the tree, and it happens to be them.

[FB.]

Quite often, varieties behave differently and the fruit look slightly different when grown in different climates and even on different rootstocks.
Trees in semi-shade and heavy soil will be cooler and therefore slower to begin flowering than trees in full sun and light soil.

[boundtothesoil]

First fruit

I thought I'd revive this thread simply to exclaim excitedly that I have an apple on one of the seedling trees resulting from the first crosses I made in 2010.


I planted the pips in February 2011, and out of 47 seedling trees, in their fourth season of growth, this is the first and only one to produce flowers (about 6 feet up the single leader) so far. It's a cross between Lord Lambourne and Discovery.