Dwarf Modern Apples vs Traditional Apples in Modern Orchards

[Pineberry]

Can someone clarify why some apples in the supermarket at the current time are label as country of origin France, Germany and Netherlands I think? Surely its not season for them yet. Are they grown in greenhouses or what?

[FB.]

Can someone clarify why some apples in the supermarket at the current time are label as country of origin France, Germany and Netherlands I think? Surely its not season for them yet. Are they grown in greenhouses or what?

They are kept in cold storage with low oxygen and high carbon dioxide to preserve the fruit. Apples on sale in the shops can be almost a year old when they appear on the shelf - and probably the delicate vitamins inside will have degenerated over time, reducing the nutritional value.

[marchogaeth]

The points made in the first post are very important to this discussion. FB it seems to me that you are referring to people (like me) who want a minimum input tree or trees that can cope with less than ideal conditions and which is a feature not just for its fruit. I have no idea if it is the fact that we chose M25 rootstock that means all my last year's plantings have come through the most horrendous weather alive and kicking but I can't help thinking anything the least bit lacking in "robustness" would have struggled. The wind has regularly and fiercly come from the East which is the first time since we moved here (20ish years), there is no natural shelter in that direction. Water has sheeted through the area as drainage failed to cope. The trees struggled and continue to do so in this weather but they are still here all in leaf and apparently with no bugs. What do you think?

PS My greengage has flowers, exciting! Shoudl I let it fruit?

[FB.]

. Water has sheeted through the area as drainage failed to cope. The trees struggled and continue to do so in this weather but they are still here all in leaf and apparently with no bugs. What do you think?

I think it sounds as if the trees will be at risk of crown and root rots, combined with oxygen deprivation.


Resistance to fungal attack:
M27: very good
M9: very good (about three days of attack before defences are breached)
M26: good
M116: good
MM106: poor
MM111: average
M25: poor

Recovery ability if it becomes infected by root-rotting fungi:
M27: poor
M9: average
M26: average
M116: average (?)
MM106: poor
MM111: very good
M25: good

Resistance to oxygen deprivation:
M27: very poor
M9: poor
M26: average
M116: good
MM106: good
MM111: very good
M25: good

Recovery ability after oxygen deprivation:
M27: very poor
M9: poor
M26: average
M116: good (?)
MM106: good
MM111: very good
M25: good

Resistance to drought:
M27: average
M9: good
M26: average
M116: average
MM106: poor
MM111: good
M25: average

Inherent vigour (number in brackets is a relative strength, or approximate size in feet, in normal back-garden, un-cared-for conditions):
M27: very dwarf (4)
M9: dwarf (6)
M26: semi-dwarf (8)
M116: medium vigour (9)
MM106: semi-vigorous (10)
MM111: vigorous (11)
M25: very vigorous (13)

Drought conditions, regular rainfall and climate will change those approximate size guides; M25 is considerably bigger than MM111 in normal conditions, but in light sandy soils or dry conditions there's not much difference (because MM111 copes better if the soil gets too dry - see drought resistance above). MM106 is almost as vigorous as MM111 in normal conditions, but in light soils MM106 may be almost halved in size.
.

[marchogaeth]

Depressing but still not bad for M25! I should add the soil is not water logged because of the slope so in between "showers" (ha) it does dry out. She goes off to look up the diseases!

[FB.]

Depressing but still not bad for M25! I should add the soil is not water logged because of the slope so in between "showers" (ha) it does dry out. She goes off to look up the diseases!

There isn't a right answer in your case.
I think you're best to opt for vigorous rootstocks where the conditions are difficult because there's a better chance that they can self-repair after damage or disease. Generally speaking, the more vigorous the rootstock, the longer the tree is expected to live and the less attention it is likely to require from its owner.
Other rootstocks you could consider are M116 and MM111. I would suggest avoiding bitter pit prone varieties on MM111 in acidic soils (often acidic soils are in the wetter parts of the UK - unless the subsoil is chalk!). MM111 has a preference for neutral or slightly alkaline soil.

So the way I see your situation:

If you choose M25, you have the vigour for a long-lived tree as long as root rots don't overwhelm it in its early years - although it can recover from mild infections.

If you choose MM111, you have better tolerance of saturated soil, but the higher rainfall is likely to lead to acidic soil which increases the risk of bitter pit on MM111 trees.

If you choose dwarfs they will resist root rots better, but if they do become infected they probably won't recover. Dwarfs also drown more easily than vigorous rootstocks. The low vigour of dwarfs makes it more difficult for them to recover from any kind of pest, disease or natural "shocks" such as the weather.

So pick your poison.

I'd stick with the M25's. But if you lose any to root rots consider replacing them with vigorous triploids on M116, or MM111's with non-bitter-pit-prone varieties.

I've posted it before, but it won't hurt to re-post it. The following picture is of the lower trunk of a MM106 tree which died from root rots caused by Phytopthora. The tree was several years old before symptoms finally appeared above-ground, although a couple of years earlier the warning signs began to appear, such as:
Smallish leaves.
Slightly sparse leaves.
Relatively poor growth.
Purple areas near veins of leaves in autumn.
Unusually large amount of blossom in spring.
Trees wilt easily in summer.
Highly coloured fruit.

The second picture is of a young MM111 which was splattered with dozens of small bark attacks from rain-splash damage - but it recovered, as many MM111's do.

[sugar]

My nursery (a wellknown adress over here) uses M26 or sometimes MM106 because M27 and M9 grow to weak and are too short-lived on poorer soil.
M25 would be way too big on my (loamy) soil. I have trouble controlling the growth of the semi-vigourous trees :-)

[FB.]

M25 would be way too big on my (loamy) soil. I have trouble controlling the growth of the semi-vigourous trees :-)

Out of interest; what's your climate - especially the amount of rain? (water being the main requirement for any plant).
Annual rainfall total averages only about 50-55cm in my area; about 10-15cm of rainfall in each of the four seasons.

[sugar]

In between 750 and 900 mm of rainfall every year. Temperatures are very moderate (20-25�c in summer, nights around 10�C on average during the growing season). We don't have long droughts (over the last 10 years 7 months with less then 25 mm of rain). Furthermore, loam retains moisture very well (but drains excess water quite well).
Commercial fruit growing is very important over here (main agricultural activity over here, mainly apples and pears). Commercial fruit growers use less vigorous rootstock (given the soil and the intense fertilization, apple orchards have a lifecycle of around 25-30 years).

[marchogaeth]

There isn't a right answer in your case.
I think you're best to opt for vigorous rootstocks where the conditions are difficult because there's a better chance that they can self-repair after damage or disease. Generally speaking, the more vigorous the rootstock, the longer the tree is expected to live and the less attention it is likely to require from its owner.

Which is what we thought. They are in and hopefully at the correct spacing following your advice last year. I'll keep the above post though and check carefull for symptoms. Thanks

[FB.]

Added some extra symptoms to the list of possible early indicators for root rots:
Smallish leaves.
Slightly sparse leaves.
Relatively poor growth.
Purple areas near veins of leaves in autumn.
Unusually large amount of blossom in spring.
Trees wilt easily in summer.
Highly coloured fruit.