Mini Orchard - Rootstock advice

[HeatherL]

Hi there, I need some advice on choosing the best rootstock for a mini mixed-fruit orchard.

We have a reasonable sized back garden that we would like to convert to a mini orchard. Currently it is a mixture of grasses, clover and a few wild flower species. We have been rotating our four chickens electric fence round half of it, but they will hopefully be in their own walk in run by the end of the year (allowed to free range when we are around to keep an eye on them). The garden is fairly exposed with our neighbours paddocks to the rear, but we have planted an edible hedgerow which is now well established and acts as a wind break. The soil is average and slightly clayey in places. We were thinking of having around 8 to 10 trees probably including the following:

Cherry - Stella or Sunburst
Plum - Angelina Burdett (as its a Hampshire variety)
Apple - Discovery
Cider Apple - Dabinett
Pear - Conference or Concorde
Perry Pear - Hendre Huffcap
2 or 3 more apple local heritage varieties (mid and late season)
Medlar - Nottingham (if room)

We would then leave the areas between the trees as wild flower meadow with the area immediately below the tree left bare/mulched.

The question is which rootstock to go for, we don't want very big trees (around 2.5m) so were initially looking at m26 for apples and equivalents for the other fruit trees but were thinking mm106 would be more suitable for our situation. I'm aware that the final tree size depends on the individual variety and soil conditions - so would mm106, st julien a, quince a be a better choice? Could they be limited to 2.5 - 3m?

[FB.]

We would then leave the areas between the trees as wild flower meadow with the area immediately below the tree left bare/mulched.

The question is which rootstock to go for, we don't want very big trees (around 2.5m) so were initially looking at m26 for apples and equivalents for the other fruit trees but were thinking mm106 would be more suitable for our situation. I'm aware that the final tree size depends on the individual variety and soil conditions - so would mm106, st julien a, quince a be a better choice? Could they be limited to 2.5 - 3m?

The medium vigour rootstocks which you mention (MM106, QA, SJA, Colt), when grown in average soils, can be dramatically reduced in vigour if grass grows near the trunk and if they are not watered or fed.
So if you give them clear ground and mulching I'd expect them to reach 3-4m (variable with the variety) after 10-15 years in your area, if the soil is average (have you checked the depth and quality of you soil, and what's underneath?).
But if grass or other plants compete with their roots, and if there is no feeding or watering (which saves you time and effort!), their size would probably be 2-3m.
In lower-rainfall areas than yours (you're probably about average rainfall for the UK), their size may be as little as 1.5-2m because of the grass intercepting so much of the rainfall and nutrients.

So you're probably best to choose those rootstocks, although they are too weak to do well and too weak to remain healthy in most parts of my region, without intensive management. (not enough rain here; strong roots are needed here to find enough water and nutrients).

Bear in mind that most trees can eventually get quite large if left for decades with no pruning, so "size at maturity" will usually be smaller than "size after 30 years if left unpruned".
My wife has a friend with a huge 40ft spread x 15ft* high Bramley. But it didn't get that big in 10-15years; the tree is estimated at a hundred years old, perhaps 125 years.

*It was about 25ft tall, but a hollow trunk combined with a storm, broke the top 10ft off the tree.

[HeatherL]

Thanks for the detailed reply FB, it's very helpful. As you recommend we will probably go for the larger rootstock. We will dig a bit deeper and check out the soil

[orangepippin]

You may find it difficult to obtain cider apples and perry pears on semi-dwarf rootstocks such as M26, but you should be able to get them on semi-vigorous rootstocks (MM106, MM111 for ciders and Quince A or Pyrodwarf for perry).

Another advantage of the MM106 / MM111 / Quince A / Pyrodwarf, and also St. Julien for plums and Colt for cherries is that if planted as 1-year trees they usually won't need staking. M26 (and other semi-dwarf rootstocks) usually need staking.

Semi-vigorous trees can be planted 4m spacings centre-to-centre (or a bit more or a bit less depending on the effect you want to achieve). You can test out the spacings by planting bamboo canes in the field now, they will immediately give you a good visual feel for what the trees will look like.

[Kirk]

For the size you mention I wouldn't go for M106, personally I would stay at M9 and M26.
If the apple is a triploid then get that on M9 and they are more vigerous, that is why Bramleys form big trees they are triploid.

If you want a mini orchard then for the apples I would most likely go for M9 on everything.

[yummersetter]

Will you get enough crop from the Dabinett and the perry pear to justify their place? I get a crop of about 30 apples off my cider apple trees on 106 that were planted two years ago and that would give me about a litre of juice at best. The Coat Jerseys I planted twenty years ago will now give me a barrow load of fruit each. They were on M25.

[FB.]

For the size you mention I wouldn't go for M106, personally I would stay at M9 and M26.
If the apple is a triploid then get that on M9 and they are more vigerous, that is why Bramleys form big trees they are triploid.

If you want a mini orchard then for the apples I would most likely go for M9 on everything.

If trees are not fed, not watered, not sprayed and have to compete with weeds or grass within a few feet of their trunk, their growth will be dramatically smaller.
While commercial orchards use M9 or M26 for their intensively-managed trees, "organic" or "low-chemical-input" orchards need M116 or MM106 to compensate for the more difficult conditions. In my conditions I need MM111 or M25 to match what commercial growers achieve in terms of tree size and cropping.

Note that Yummersetter has pointed out that even on M25 rootstock, considered to be the biggest and strongest that's easily available for apples, where the trees are mostly left to fend for themselves and despite plentiful rainfall in most years it has taken twenty years for the trees to reach a size sufficient for a wheelbarrow of production per year. I suspect the trees - mostly unpruned - have reached a rather unremarkable size probably not exceeding 4.5metres (15ft) in that time.

[Kirk]

Never said they had to pick M9, read the post, said "personally I would not pick M106" and that "I would most likely go for M9 on everything".

Where in that am I telling anyone they should or have to?

Which for the 10 apples I have is precisely what I have done, all M9, all in the garden, all doing well and all about 2.5 meters. Which if I recall is what was asked for.

A size not exceeding 4.5 meters way exceeds the size that the OP wanted however, they state around 2.5 mtr.

[FB.]

Kirk,

2.5m for an M9 is very good going. Where are you located? How are you managing the trees?

I'd be lucky to get a M25 Bramley to 2.5m in ten years!

Yummersetter's trees are 20+ years old. They may be 4.5m now but they were probably 2.5-3m when "mature" at ten years. Most fruit trees will continue to get larger if they are left unpruned, but I would expect Yummersetter could have kept the M25's to 3m with regular pruning. I can grow M25 apples and seedling pears as cordons. For me, MM106 only make a 3-4ft "rose bush" size.

[yummersetter]

Well, actually the Coat Jerseys, bottom grafted at Brogdale, stubbornly refused to grow for the first seven years or so, and were about 2 metres when they were ten years old.

They've made up for it since . . . the shovel is 5ft long, which makes that tree about 25ft high, 7.6 metres!

This year the apples are tiny though, you could hold four in your hand, though they might grow larger yet.

[yummersetter]

And here's the 7 year old Kingston Black tree, two years after I rescued and moved it. It has about forty apples.

But my land has had apples growing for hundreds of years, in another place that hasn't grow fruit before, and in garden soil, trees may well grow faster than mine.

[FB.]

Hi yummersetter

Is the crown about 5-6ft in size, plus whatever length of clear stem?
Something about the way it looks makes me want to say MM106. It doesn't give the impression of the "heavy-set" "chunky" "extra-sturdy" appearance I'd expect from M25.

Round here, MM111 or M25 would take a couple of years longer to get to that size - say nine or ten years.
MM106 would take probably fifteen years if it hadn't died in its earlier years through stress which then makes it prone to disease.

[yummersetter]

yes, the Kingston Black is on MM106, 5ft clear trunk, 4-5 ft diameter - I don't want any of the recently planted trees to need a huge ladder to pick the fruit. I don't think I'd get much in the way of cider from this tree alone, as I was suggesting earlier.

[FB.]

yes, the Kingston Black is on MM106, 5ft clear trunk, 4-5 ft diameter - I don't want any of the recently planted trees to need a huge ladder to pick the fruit. I don't think I'd get much in the way of cider from this tree alone, as I was suggesting earlier.

So 7yr old MM106 in about average conditions (below average "replant" soil, offset by plenty of rain) reached 1.5m wide and 3m tall (which could be 1.5m less if the trunk were shorter).
So about 1.5-2m in seven years if grown as a short-stemmed bush in average conditions.
Probably 3m width after ten years.
That's not overly vigorous and about what the opening poster wants.......unless their soil is especially good or unless they don't mind waiting twenty years for a M9 to reach 3m in average conditions.

[orangepippin]

I visited the East Malling pear trial orchard last week. They had pear trees on dwarf Quince C rootstocks (roughly equivalent to apple M9), grown as double and quad cordons, at least 10ft / 3m tall, probably more.

Oh, and these trees were planted just 1 year ago, and were likely to crop at 30 tonnes per hectare. (I think they must have been 2-year trees from the nursery to get that big that quickly). I'm not sure what that translates to in kg per tree, suffice to say each tree was loaded with pears.

It shows what you can achieve on dwarf rootstocks if you keep the trees properly fed and watered (and each row had computer controlled fertiliser and irrigation of course). As amateur we might not have all this kind of equipment, but if you are prepared to put the effort in, dwarf trees will give you the rewards.