New Orchard

[FB.]

perhaps be wiser to pick a few for disease resistance.

Disease resistance is mostly based on "he said" "she said".
Not much scientific study has been done on older varieties. Most new varieties seem to quickly become prone to canker without spraying, even if they are bred to be resistant to scab. It often doesn't take long for the shallow disease resistance of modern varieties to be over-run.

Many very old varieties have outstanding disease resistance (that's why they've lasted so long - and that's why so many "old-timers" are triploid) but because they've never been widely grown - or at least not much in modern times - the modern fruit "experts" simply don't know how resistant or susceptible the trees are.
Disease resistance also can vary with the soil and climate. Some varieties definitely prefer certain soils or climates - and not necessarily all prefer the best soils!
Some of the older varieties seem to prefer difficult soils, or grow just as well in horrible soil as they will in rich soil, and crop better in the nasty soil; probably because when they were raised many centuries ago the tree simply had to grow and crop well on whatever land and conditions its owner had to make do with.
Many old-timers also show surprisingly good resistance to pest/insect problems too, because three hundred years ago there were no pheromone traps or insecticide to deal with codling moth, and no way to deal with woolly aphid other than varieties with tolerance or low attractiveness to the pest

If it came to a competition for all-round disease resistance, pest resistance and tolerance of a wide range of conditions, I'd back some of the really old triploids (and a few of the modern triploids).

Contrary to popular belief, triploids tend to have a greater level of self-fertility than most diploids, and will often set an acceptable crop with minimal pollination. Triploids regularly have few pips or no pips at all in the fruit. Funnily, some old books list varieties now known to be triploid as "self fertile". Some varieties now known to be triploid were once recommended as "good pollinators".
The trusty old Scotch Bridget is triploid yet "it will produce regular heavy crops even after a harsh winter, late frosts and a poor summer".

[Kirk]

Paulieb, just to let you know you are the cause of me getting another book.
Checked Amazon and there is a new variant of The Apple Book out, almost identical but a couple of apples not in my older one.

This one also has a second author, not just Rosanne Sanders, contents appears differently arranged as well. Also has RHS symbol on the front, so the RHS seem to be involved or behind it as well.

So decided what the hell, may as well have it also. Even if it is 95% the same.

The one I have is US published, the previous to mine, absolutely identical was UK published and is rare as hens teeth.

It is all your fault.

[Paulieb]

Paulieb, just to let you know you are the cause of me getting another book.
Checked Amazon and there is a new variant of The Apple Book out, almost identical but a couple of apples not in my older one.

This one also has a second author, not just Rosanne Sanders, contents appears differently arranged as well. Also has RHS symbol on the front, so the RHS seem to be involved or behind it as well.

So decided what the hell, may as well have it also. Even if it is 95% the same.

The one I have is US published, the previous to mine, absolutely identical was UK published and is rare as hens teeth.

It is all your fault.

I've just received my copy of The Apple Book'!
Looks like I'll enjoy many an hour glued to it.

Also had a rethink on varieties, which now means I have a list of about 40 varieties which I'm in the process of narrowing down, but they do include mainly western origin varieties like William Crump, Court of Wick and Egremont Russet, which after all your comments, seem to me to better choices.

My next plan is to try get hold of local varieties in farm shops/food festivals to give them a try, or if anyone knows of a local apple day, I could try that.

I'd love to go to Keepers' open day, but trying to persuade SWMBO to travel the width of the country to taste apples with the kids screaming in the back, is not something I'll even try!

[yummersetter]

I've just looked at Sarah Juniper's website - plenty of apples there and some pick-your-own days coming up. (Sorry, Mrs PaulieB!)

[orangepippin]

Cool. I'll perhaps have a bit of a rethink.

A couple were initially picked on name (hoary morning) or just 'rarity' but I was trying to be sensible in the main.

This is an important point for anyone planning to breed their own apple variety from seed. Never mind the flavour, give it a good name! Girls names are good. Boys names less so. Romantic evocative names like Hoary Morning or Bloody Ploughman are particularly effective. Modern breeders spend much time and money on this sort of thing - for example the new varieties Kanzi and Zari are both Swahili words, chosen not for their meaning but because they sound nice.

[orangepippin]

I'd love to go to Keepers' open day, but trying to persuade SWMBO to travel the width of the country to taste apples with the kids screaming in the back, is not something I'll even try!

The Keepers collection is more accessible than the Brogdale (national) collection since it is in a smaller area, yet still has hundreds of varieties.

Keepers and Brogdale are about 30-40 minutes apart, so if you really wanted to you could visit both on the same day (although Brogdale requires at least a half-day to even begin to do it justice).

Another interesting thing this season is that the mid-season apple and pear varieties are several weeks behind because of the late spring, and the end of the season is going to be very compressed, so there is a unique opportunity to see both mid and late season apples on the trees at the same time. Maybe you should dump the kids somewhere and go for it!

[Paulieb]

My current order for apples only currently stands at:
Bloody Ploughman M26
Braddick Nonpareil MM106
Sturmer Pippin M9
Reverend W Wilks MM106
Egremont Russet M26
Baumans Reinette MM106
Beeley Pippin MM106
Court of Wick MM106
William Crump MM106
Ashmead's Kernel MM106
Orleans Reinette MM106
Cox's Pomona MM106.

I only need 8 (of the MM106) for my columnar row(hedge) (unless I can stretch it out another 3ft), so may still change and the others can go elsewhere. But in terms of varieties I'm happier now that I've chosen varieties which will either suit my area better, or suit my tastes.

We're off to do some apple picking in Dursley on Saturday at Sarah Juniper's so will hopefully get to taste a few varieties which may affect this list.

I also discovered that the rootstocks at college that I've been grafting and budding are actually MM106 (and not M27 as I'd thought). So now if they're all successful I'll have more varieties of my own making on MM106......Winter Gem, Jupiter, Bramley's Seedling (x2), Brownlees' Russet (x3).

[seneca196]

Your columnar hedge of mm106 sounds interesting. What are your plans and what do you hope to achieve? I'm looking into experimenting with a few individual forms, beginning from scratch, as a means to learn more about these "dark arts." That way I can afford it to go wrong, and have a bash of seeing how it develops of the years. I'm hoping to learn the basics from books and websites and then getting creative. May plan is to have one conventional project and an experiment each year, starting this year with a difficult border and a more straight-forward group of cordons. There are more than a few wise men & women online to ask for advice when I inevitably go astray. All good fun!
My cordon project may have a thing or two in common with your columnar hedge, so am keen to see what you're up to. Putting anything about it on your blog? I plan a new thread on it this weekend, when I've come to my senses over the problem border.

[orangepippin]

Regarding the dark arts, have a look out for "La taille des arbres fruitieres" by Becalletto and Retournard. It's entirely in French, but the pictures and diagrams are good. Where we have a couple of forms of cordons and a couple of forms of espaliers, the French seem to have dozens of each.

[Paulieb]

Your columnar hedge of mm106 sounds interesting. What are your plans and what do you hope to achieve? I'm looking into experimenting with a few individual forms, beginning from scratch, as a means to learn more about these "dark arts." That way I can afford it to go wrong, and have a bash of seeing how it develops of the years. I'm hoping to learn the basics from books and websites and then getting creative. May plan is to have one conventional project and an experiment each year, starting this year with a difficult border and a more straight-forward group of cordons. There are more than a few wise men & women online to ask for advice when I inevitably go astray. All good fun!
My cordon project may have a thing or two in common with your columnar hedge, so am keen to see what you're up to. Putting anything about it on your blog? I plan a new thread on it this weekend, when I've come to my senses over the problem border.

The main reason is to fit as many cultivars into my small garden as possible.

The idea for this particular idea came from something I saw at 'Garden Organic' where I am currently studying (once a week). In their orchard they have a variety of forms including both 45 degree cordons and some vertical columns.

In particular there are some apples (can't remember the variety), which are on MM106, grown as a column which must have been 12-14ft tall.

Just found some older pics on google (2 pics half way down). Inspiration gallery | Fruit-full Schools

I'm planning 4 pears and 8 apples in a line down the north boundary of my garden. I've chosen varieties that are not just spur bearers but 'freely spurring'. They'll be 3ft apart and hopefully pruned to have a 6-12 inch gap between them when they're more mature.

[orangepippin]

Cordons are an excellent way of packing pear and apple trees into limited space. M9 / Quince C will give you the best density.

If you also want to maximise production (as opposed to just the number of varieties you can grow) then for apple trees the M27 rootstock is a good choice. Trees can be planted 1m apart and grown as spindlebushes, and are arguably easier to maintain than cordons. However for all high-density plantings you need good soil and good irrigation.

[seneca196]

Those apple columns look really good. What an "inspirational" idea! Those are on mm106? The distances seem quite close, but then planting distance is indeed puzzling - books/websites always give what seem like large distances for the different rootstocks; yet there are many pictures that show quite large, healthy and fruiting trees planted quite closely. Don't know if there are factors which affect planting distance eg. water, feeding, position/location, soil etc. \a connection is never made to them and distances. I suppose it may be that distance has more to do with eventual size of the tree.

Back to the idea of columns and cordons -
Columns seem like a terrific way of growing apples. They could in theory, be dotted amongst existing borders, providing there is sufficient space. Particularly if "full borders" are actually just a few shrubs that have spread out to fill the space. The column would be able to grow out and above those shrubs and not be impeded. Something another form could not do, except if it's at the back, supported in some way. I've come across these on a few nursery websites, but disregarded the idea, as it appeared a bit gimmicky (apples on a pole!) Also, there were only a few varieties.

Oblique cordons seem to be the way to get more varieties, but they need support. Only worth putting up wires if you grow a few. I'd say a row of 4 was the minimum. I'm interested in having more varieties, the yields aren't that important. Whilst more is good, the delight of different tastes and textures is greater, and something to look forward to. I'm the main apple eater in our house, so don't need loads. Also, I would prefer not to have a ton in storage, but rather savour a small few...... probably just me then! Hope that view is not heretical on these boards!

[seneca196]

Something's got me curious -

I'm planning 4 pears and 8 apples in a line down the north boundary of my garden. I've chosen varieties that are not just spur bearers but 'freely spurring'. They'll be 3ft apart and hopefully pruned to have a 6-12 inch gap between them when they're more mature.

What's the reasoning behind your spacing? How is it you can put mm106 trees so closely together, compared to the recommendations (about 4X that)?

Is it because of the form you have chosen (vertical cordons)? In other words, you don't want a developed crown head or spreading like a bush or standard. By restricting it's width and directing growth upwards, does that make close planting possible? Will you have to do more training and pruning to keep its column shape, when it want to be a big tree? Or will you be feeding/watering it to make it fruit. I imagine the amount of fruit you get will be a lot less than the same tree allowed to develop normally. Is that why you plan on 8 apple trees, to increase the overall amount you get?

Also, are the varieties you've chosen vigorous and upright in habit? What do you mean by "freely spurring" as opposed to spurring. Where did you find the information regarding each variety.

I know - more questions than answers - just curious I guess

[FB.]

Something's got me curious -



What's the reasoning behind your spacing? How is it you can put mm106 trees so closely together, compared to the recommendations (about 4X that)?

Ask a seedling growing in a hedgerow.

You can plant as close as you like. The closer you plant the more the roots compete, the slower the plants grow and the sooner they start cropping.

A trial was once conducted with apples on seedling rootstocks in fairly good soil, spaced at distances varying from 3x3m to 8x8m.
The heaviest croppers (and greatest crop per square metre) was from the 3m-spaced trees.
The wider spaced trees had so much room that they just decided to grow.

The best way to bring a tree into early and heavy cropping is mild stress; a little bit thirsty, a little bit hungry and a little bit of a root-war with other plants nearby or its neighbouring trees.
Think of it this way: how many people decided to get married or have kids immediately after life has thrown a shock at them?
Fruit trees are the same. They are programmed to grow as large and fast as possible at the expense of fruiting until they start to feel stressed. At which point they start fruiting to ensure they reproduce before they die.
A very sick tree will often produce the most spectacular blossom display shortly before it dies.
Contrary to popular belief: a plant which is flowering is actually signalling that it's not entirely happy while a plant which is growing but now flowering is telling you that it's very happy.

Dwarf rootstocks achieve the same effect by partial incompatibility ("partial rejection") between scion and rootstock which deforms the sapflow vessels at their often-swollen graft union which affects sapflow and part-starves the top of the tree to encourage flower bud formation.

[seneca196]

Brilliant. Thought you'd know FB. Curiosity satisfied. Miserable, stressed-out, neglected trees sound ideal. There I was thinking to get the best from them they needed a bit of TLC!