apples/pears/plums border advice & opinions needed

[orangepippin]

Back to fruit - my shortlist "Sunset, Egremont Russet, Discovery, Scrumptious, Spartan, Fiesta, Red Falstaff, James Grieve, Flastaff" had to be a compromise too unfortunately, but as it happens I love Russets so I had to include it. The list is not set in stone, so if needed a substitution can be made.
Have now also come across Bountiful, Beauty of Bath and one I've had many a time and enjoyed Worcester Pearmain (though Katy is meant to be similar and more reliable.)

Surely there must be some reliable multi-purpose, good all-rounders amongst all the pear varieties. They will have to be on Qunice A I think. I used to come across Conferences (not the most interesting I agree) planted all over the place and they appeared to be thriving with neglect and odd conditions. As a kid I climbed up one the size of a small house and in a tiny shaded garden.

All the apple varieties on your shortlist are good choices. Katy and Scrumptious and Discovery are probably in the same niche, I would choose just 1 or 2 of them. Sunset and Fiesta are also quite similar but both very good, and Fiesta in particular stores pretty well.

Pears: As well as Conference (of course), consider Beth, Invincible, Onward, Louise Bonne - all well flavoured and pretty reliable. Concorde (Conference x Comice) is very good when conditions are good or on a more vigorous rootstock. Durondeau is also pretty steady, and has some ornamental value too.

I think there is a modest trend (possibly almost indiscernible) in the industry away from Quince A and towards Pyrodwarf for medium/large pear trees. Being a true pear rootstock there are fewer incompatibility problems with Pyrodwarf. It's a bit more vigorous than Quince A (not necessarily a bad thing).

[FB.]

Fiesta in particular stores pretty well.

I find that although the apples keep well, they are only average flavour and are often troubled by bitter pit.
In store, they tend to quite quickly go to an aniseed flavour after about a month, then to an antiseptic ("TCP") flavour after a couple of months and are inedible after that despite remaining pretty to look at.

The tree, though is very healthy and after a few slow years it took off to become a very strong grower rivalling the big triploids.

Egremont Russet, Discovery, Scrumptious and Falstaff all suffer quite a lot of bitter pit. Discovery and Scrumptious lose almost every apple to a maggot and must be carefully dissected unless you want to be chewing on a codling maggot. Discovery and especially Scrumptious also suffer from woolly aphids, where colonies seem to grow at a much faster rate than on other varieties.
Egremont is losing its disease resistance - I lost mine to canker last year. Discovery's resistance appears to be weakening too, with some quite larges cankers appearing on my trees this year.

The battle-tested veterans that I grow, on MM111 or M25, are:
(T) denotes varieties which I know, or strongly suspect, are triploid or aneuploid.
* denotes varieties which I consider to be the best of their season, of those that I grow.
(the list changes from time to time due to high casualty rates and a desire to experiment - or maybe I forgot to list one, or listed one which turned out to be not-true-to-type)

Early:
Irish Peach*, Beauty of Bath, Gladstone

Second Early:
Laxton's Epicure* (T), Tydeman's Early Worcester

Mid:
Gravenstein* (T), Herring's Pippin (T), Ribston Pippin (T), Emperor Alexander (T)

Mid-late:
Blenheim Orange* (T), Jupiter* (T), Spartan, Gascoyne's Scarlet (T)

Late
Ashmead's Kernel* (T), Edward VII* (T), Hambledon Deux Ans (T), Coeur de Boeuf (T), Belle de Boskoop (T), Winter Majetin (T), Tydeman's Late Orange, D'Arcy Spice (T), Court Pendu Plat, Bernwode's Milton Wonder (T)

[FB.]

As for pears: Doyenne d'Ete is a must-have for me.
I grow it on both Pyrodwarf and Pyrus communis (seedling) and haven't noticed much difference in vigour or productivity between the two rootstocks.
It would not surprise me at all if Doyenne d'Ete turned out to be a freakish part-self-fertile triploid because it seems to be disease-free, produces only a few small, mis-shapen pips, yet never fails to produce at least a reasonable crop even if my other pears did not overlap their flowering.
It's a part-tip-bearer, very precocious and flowers quite early in the pear season.

I actually find that Conference tastes better, grows better, crops more and crops more regularly than Concorde. This is opposite to what most people say, and may reflect my unusual growing conditions.

edit:
apparently, old books/catalogues state that Doyenne d'Ete is highly incompatible with Quince-type rootstocks and tends to be very short-lived and sickly unless grown on pear stock (e.g. Pyrus communis or Pyrodwarf).

[seneca196]

Bit busy today, as usual on a Friday, but plan to leave this weekend to do some more in depth research. Hopefully, will wittle down the short-list a bit further with some firm choices. As was mentioned before, I've reduced the varieties down and rootstock, just a matter of seeing if there are any still available on the websites I've looked at. May need to look further if I can't find the right variety, form and rootstock I'm after. Doubt if I'll find everything in one place, so may need to look a getting from a couple of places. Need a bit of advice (sorry if they sound a bit dim and obvious) -

* is it ok to buy the same, form, rootstock, but deferent varieties from different nurseries ie. a half standard on MM106 from 2 different places?
* What if I can't get everything on bare root? will 2 apples or pears be vastly different if one is in a container?
* is a half standard a half standard from everywhere ie. will they both have a similar size stem?
* is it better to try and buy from somewhere nearer to me or similar in climate? Not many around the midlands region, so north or south? Would north of Midlands be grown a bit hardier than the warmer south?
* (sorry if this sounds a bit off, but never bought online before, only ever things seen at garden centres and understandably, websites can't show actual pictures)
Can anyone recommend some reliable suppliers they have used for apples/pears on MM106 and QA? Am I allowed to ask this and is it ok for people to mention them? (unsure if it contravenes any forum policy or is poor forum etiquette - if so, please ignore.)

Thanks. Looking forward to the weekend. Hope it won't be too tricky and lead to more variables and complications. Harder than buying a house!

Have a good weekend everyone.

[FB.]

* is it ok to buy the same, form, rootstock, but deferent varieties from different nurseries ie. a half standard on MM106 from 2 different places?

I wouldn't. Different nurseries have different ideas about what makes a half-standard and different nurseries churn out trees grafted and/or grown in different ways, different soils and different climates.

* What if I can't get everything on bare root? will 2 apples or pears be vastly different if one is in a container?

If you buy one in a container you'd be best to "bare root" it by shaking off all the compost. Compost will discourage the roots from growing into the poorer surrounding soil. Containerised trees usually benefit from some untangling of their pot-bound roots.

* is a half standard a half standard from everywhere ie. will they both have a similar size stem?

Not necessarily. Some nurseries might cut a HSTD at 3-4ft while others might cut it at 4-5ft. I doubt they'll measure it exactly. The way it will have grown after being cut will vary with the growing conditions at that nursery. Some nurseries will produce better-looking trees than others.

* is it better to try and buy from somewhere nearer to me or similar in climate? Not many around the midlands region, so north or south? Would north of Midlands be grown a bit hardier than the warmer south?

I wouldn't worry too much about where they've been grown. They'll adjust to their new climate within a season or two.

Can anyone recommend some reliable suppliers they have used for apples/pears on MM106 and QA?

Keepers nursery is probably the most likely to have what you want, in the form that you want.
Link here:
Keepers Nursery UK | Fruit trees for sale | Buy Online | Mail order

I've generally found Keepers trees to be among the biggest, healthiest and easiest to establish. But even good nurseries can produce a bad batch from time to time, due to climate in that season. On the other hand, some nurseries seem to chronically produce below-average-quality trees.

Personally, I prefer one-year maidens to two-year trees because the root damage to older trees can be horrific and they may take a year to recover (in the same time that a maiden will have formed a branched head if treated appropriately). One-year maidens are also cheaper and can be pruned to the exact trunk height you require.

[FB.]

-
Here are a couple of pictures of what a MM111 maiden would look like when planting, and how it should look as it grows the next season, then how it should look a year later after the leaves fall (although this maiden was home-grown by me - actually it's two maidens but they are the same variety and rootstock but at different ages).

[FB.]

Notice the huge roots - did I mention that MM111 is one of the most drought-resistant apple rootstocks available?

[seneca196]

Thanks FB. Thorough as usual. You should write a book, or at least have a website!

Keepers was one already on my list, and with a few exceptions have most of what I was originally after. If they don't or have sold out, I may just pick something else from them as a replacement. After all, non of my choices were set in stone. I realized there would have to be compromises at start. Anything I can't get, I plan to get in another form and rootstock and locate elsewhere in the garden. Plan to "hide" a few of the more "choice" varieties in the borders. Also have turned my attention to a sunny spot on the opposite side of the garden and plan to put some oblique cordons in there. As the 4 in the "difficult border" will be bigger and possibly not work out, I'll have other varieties elsewhere. No reason the 4 biggest trees need to be my favourites or most desired. In fact, as cordons on the sunny side will more likely succeed, it may be better to save the ones I really want for there. Bound to be more productive and produce quicker. They will get their own thread!

Oh dear, just before leaving to head home, someone has bought in some green gages and they were fabulous. A bit over-ripe, but amazingly sweet and flavoured. Feel like a kid in a sweet shop, I want one!
Alas, that was dismissed as not viable in the earlier replies to this thread. Crestfallen.

[seneca196]

you posted the pictures before I finished my reply! Thanks again. Someone with your knowledge and experience can easily nurture a whip into a thing of beauty, but unfortunately I'm an inexperienced, but enthusiastic novice. I need as close to a ready-made as is feasible, with just a bit of tinkering needed. I plan to read up on pruning etc once they in the ground and are over-wintering, along with me. I'm leaving whips for my experiments next year. More time to learn and prepare.

[FB.]

Someone with your knowledge and experience can easily nurture a whip into a thing of beauty, but unfortunately I'm an inexperienced, but enthusiastic novice.

The two later pictures are the MM111 planted straight into my shallow, light, infertile soil, with competing grass all the way up to the trunk and with no feeding or spraying. Actually, it was planted into the same spot where a MM106 had died from root rot.
It's idiot-proof - things have to be, considering my difficult conditions.

Literally: lift off turf, dig hole, chuck tree in hole, spread roots around hole, kick dirt back into hole making sure roots are evenly spread, then gently firm the dirt and replace the turf.
Then off it goes all by itself, growing a foot or so each year if left alone; more if fed/watered. M25 rootstock will do the same. MM106 and smaller rootstocks don't always do well when left to do their own thing or when they have to compete with grass, although MM106's problems stem from being poor at finding water, but is as vigorous as MM111 where the soil is cool and damp (but not waterlogged).

MM111 and M25 are virtually idiot-proof. They can be encouraged to behave like MM106(smaller, slower-growing trees cropping when young) if they are pruned with thinning cuts rather than heading cuts as early in life as possible.
On the other hand the MM111/M25 can be encouraged to become big, fast-growing trees if they have all the new growth shortened by one-third to one-half using heading cuts each winter.

You mention one part of your garden being the "difficult border". Consider planting cookers, large-fruited varieties, sweeter-tasting varieties, triploids or earlier-ripening varieties in the more difficult spots such as spot with partial shading.

In your soil, with moisture not being a problem due to the cool, damp, shaded soil, MM106 is probably going to be OK for your needs and equivalent to MM111 because water availability won't be a problem.

[seneca196]

spoke with someone who asked me why I discarded the idea of a plum or gage tree and was focusing on apples and pears. After saying I didn't think they would ripen, as there was not enough sunlight. After mentioning light in the canopy and most of the shade was coming from trees in other gardens, he said he would class it partial shade and in that if the surrounding trees were slow to leaf in spring, then I would have a slightly longer season for growing. He mentioned a plum called czar and an early transparent gage, that might be ok, as they were upright and could be pruned to be like a bush form on a long stem. They apparently can be grown on north facing walls. Isn't that how a half standard functions? Wasn't fully convinced, as he seemed to be trouble-shooting my problem, rather than saying if was likely to work. Need to look into it a bit further tonight, as it might work.

[FB.]

spoke with someone who asked me why I discarded the idea of a plum or gage tree and was focusing on apples and pears. After saying I didn't think they would ripen,

Some plums will grow and crop in semi-shade.
In fact, most types of fruit have a few varieties which can be grown in areas which don't get much sun. There are a very small number of each type which are said to grow with no direct sun, as long as they get plenty of light and air.

Such varieties tend to be old-timers, I'm afraid, because modern requirements don't consider any special situations and modern varieties haven't been around long enough to prove themselves in non-orchard conditions.
In past centuries "special situations" were fairly common when people just had to make do with whatever soil, climate or aspect their plot offered.

If modern varieties are preferred for a dull spot, I'd consider Scandinavian-bred varieties such as Opal (plum), Katy/Katja (apple) etc but I'd prefer something old and proven.

Keepers' search function will allow you to search by region of origin.
Suitability for Northern Britain's cooler/duller climate might be helpful too. So might looking for fairly sweet varieties because without much sun fruits will become much more acidic.

[yummersetter]

I have Early Transparent gage against a west facing wall, in my opinion it deserves the best as its a wonderful plum, smooth and sweet.

[orangepippin]

I agree with yummersetter about Early Transparent Gage, I doubt it will achieve its characteristic lusciousness on a north-facing wall. Opal (which is a half-gage) also really needs a south-facing aspect to get decent sweetness. Sunlight is an important factor in getting sugar levels into the fruit, which is why culinary or tart varieties are usually preferred if light is limited.

Good plums for north-facing situations would be Czar (as you suggested) and some of its descendants such as Herman and Edda. I would consider Edda an "improved" Czar.

A "half-standard" is any fruit tree that has been trained with a 1m (approx.) clear stem. It is therefore a style of growing the tree, not really anything to do with north or south-facing planting positions. (A "standard" is therefore a tree grown with a 2m clear-stem. You can sit under a half-standard, and walk under a standard.)

[seneca196]

Yes, I understood that tree form was not connected with position in relation to sunlight, What I meant was getting the "goblet" part of a bush as high up as reasonably possible. Hence, putting it on a taller stem. 2m seemed too high, as that would make the entire "goblet" above fence line, meaning I would get a taller tree. I'd like to keep it around 4m. I thought a standard would look a bit odd, whereas a half standard wouldn't (bearing in mind the trees are bound to be a weird looking, but that's in keeping with the hole crazy project!) Thinking more of a slender wine glass, or maybe a Champaign flute on a 1m stem. I'm looking at more upright varieties of apples and pears, rather than the spreading kind. I realize a lot can be done with pruning, but I need to get some research done before attempting anything. Maybe I could put a few small shrubs in the gaps underneath in a few years time, in order to make it more like a planted up border. I could sink them in containers if necessary. (I'll be starting a "fruit trees amongst borders and other strange places" thread soon. Birthday's coming up and would rather a few fruit trees than the usual stuff. They can wrap up a whip and put a bow on it.)