Orchard layout questions

[Sylvan]

Oh dear. I thought I had it all figured out. I've drawn my final plan in ink and we even planted the Scotch Bridget....

Then I read what FB said about MM106 taking a long time to recover from lack of water ( http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...ust_73710.html ) and now I'm panicking!

Please may I have some advice on layout.

The field in question slopes mainly down to the east, but also slightly south. At the top it's almost pure yellow sand and rock once you get past the topsoil and down at the bottom it's peat bog .

I planned to put the smaller trees further south and further upslope, with the earliest varieties at the top, so the apples would have been harvested before the worst of the winds hit, and frost resistant ones at the bottom.
I also tried to put pollination partners reasonably close together (especially Arbroath Oslin, Keswick Codling and Irish Peach!)

(Actually that's another question... will Edward VII and Court Pendu Plat pollinate each other or do I need something else? I had thought William Crump would do it but have found conflicting information about its flowering time.)

Now I'm wondering whether I need to rejig it to put the M25s at the top (and maybe start lower down the slope).

Also, should I ask the nursery to change as many as possible of my MM106 to M25?

Aargh! Just tried to attach my plan but it won't let me (it's an excel file)

Also, in the next field, we have planted a line of MM106 rootstocks along the top row. Do we need to move them?

[Sylvan]

Don't worry, we're not planning to plant anywhere near the boggy bit.

[Sylvan]

The varieties I might be able to change to M25s are Annie Elizabeth, Beauty of Bath, Bloody Ploughman, Katy, Newton Wonder, Norfolk Beefing and Sops in Wine.
I originally ordered them on MM106 because they're suppose to be vigorous varieties and I thought they would be too big on M25.

They're going to be planted in east Sutherland, at about 70m above sea level.

As it stands at the moment we will have, on MM106:

American Mother, Annie Elizabeth, Arbroath Oslin, Beauty of Bath, Bloody Ploughman, Brownlees Russet, Ellisons Orange, Galloway Pippin, Howgate Wonder, Irish Peach, Katy, Keswick Codlin, Newton Wonder, Norfolk Beefing, Rajka, Scotch Bridget, Scotch Dumpling, Sops in Wine, White Melrose, William Crump and Winter Gem

and on M25:
Adam's Pearmain, Ashmead's Kernel, Beauty of Moray, Court Pendu Plat, D'Arcy Spice, Discovery, Edward VII, Pitmaston Pineapple, Ribston Pippin and Striped Beefing.

[FB.]

If you have plenty of regular rainfall you won't have a problem with MM106 if you buy from a nursery with healthy stock.

MM106 is most problematic in Eastern areas where rainfall is low and where soils are often sandy, gravelly or chalky.

Take a look at the Met Office map link:
Met Office: UK mapped climate averages

If your annual rainfall is <600mm you are very likely to have serious problems with MM106.
If the rainfall is 600-700mm or 700-800mm your MM106 will probably be quite a bit smaller than expected.
At 800-1000mm MM106 will behave more or less as expected.
In areas with 1000-1250mm you may find MM106 becomes as vigorous as MM111.

Higher ground (hills, mountains) tends to receive much more rainfall than lower-lying and coastal areas. Hence why the flat, low-lying land of East Anglia gets so little rain while NorthWestern (higher altitude) areas get much more rain.

Also note the soil has an effect. Light sandy soils soon lose their moisture as it drains away quickly. I can grow MM106 almost normally here if I plant it where a fence casts a shadow which keeps the ground cool and damp for most of the year.

[FB.]

I think MM106 is best summed up as a fairly vigorous rootstock which is highly sensitive to soil moisture and struggles in soils which are dry for much of the summer.

It makes quite large trees where water isn't limiting (but not waterlogged- especially not waterlogged in spring or autumn).
But where water is a limiting factor MM106 is very unhappy.

MM111 and M25 are a much better choice in drier regions and the lack of water in those regions will reduce the size and growth of MM111 and M25 too, such that MM111 or M25 basically give the result that "the books" tell you a MM106 should - a tree about 2.5-3m (8-10ft) after ten years or so.

[FB.]

I posted this on another topic a few days ago.
You will see that MM106 (and its father, M1) are the most affected by challenging conditions in lighter/drier/less fertile soils (my experiences are that MM106 doesn't mind infertile or shallow soil, but it's dryness that it can't cope with).

As you can see: MM106 goes from being only slightly smaller than MM111 (59% v 66%) in good loamy soils to being barely more than half the size (24% v 41%) in drier sandier soils.

Soil quality - and especially availability of water during summer - makes a huge difference. A tree which might reach 4m (13ft) for one person might only reach 2m (7ft) for someone in a less favourable location.

It's all about availability of water to the plant.

--------------------------

Trials conducted by the research stations several decades ago show mature tree size (10-15yrs) roughly as follows, in size order within each set of growing conditions:
The largest trees reached about 4m in height and 5m spread (rated at 100%).

Good conditions:

M4: 100%
MM109: 96%
M16: 86%
M25: 84%
M2: 72%
MM111: 66%
M7: 62%
MM106: 59%
M1: 51%
M9: 18%

Challenging conditions:

M16: 61%
MM109: 58%
M25: 42%
MM111: 41%
M4: 41%
M7: 35%
M2: 31%
MM106: 24%
M1: 22%
M9: 10%

Notice that some rootstocks thrive in some conditions, but not in other conditions.
Among the really big rootstocks, M16 was smaller than M4 or MM109 in good conditions, but M16 was larger in challenging conditions - much larger than M4.
MM111 really shoots up the league table in the more difficult conditions and is a match for M25 (matching the M4 rootstock which was the largest in the good soil).
M7 and MM106 are similar in good conditions, but M7 does better in poorer conditions.
Similarly: MM106 is only slightly smaller than MM111 in good conditions, but is much smaller in poorer conditions (doesn't like soil which dries out easily).

[Sylvan]

Thanks FB.

According to that map we should have about 1000-1250mm, but we're on a fairly steep slope and the soil is very dry for quite a lot of it.

At the level we're planning to start planting I was digging a hole to plant something that was in a 45cm pot and once I got past the topsoil this is what came out of the planting hole. (The sand was pale yellow when I dug it out but by the time I had fetched the camera the moisture in the air (on a hot, dry day) had darkened it.) - in other words, there was more moisture in the air than in the soil.



Is it likely that the water would run off too quickly for the MM106 if I planted them near the top?

Should I put the M25s along the top instead and should I try to change some of my order to M25 instead of MM106?

[Sylvan]

I had read some advice on rootstocks (I think it may have been you that posted it) a while ago but I couldn't find MM111 so I tried to go for M25 as much as possible, except for the really vigorous varieties, which I thought might be too big.
I had assumed that in our conditions (poor soil, average rainfall, short growing season) the MM106 would vary from 1.8m to 2.4m and the M25 from 1.8m (Adam's Pearmain) to 2.6m, but if the variable moisture will affect the MM106 badly all bets are off!

Although I'm expecting them to be smaller than most sources quote I still assumed we should put them almost the recommended distance apart, since if the soil is poor and shallow, presumably the roots will have to spread out more to find water, regardless of what the tree does above ground. Am I right in thinking that?

[FB.]

More moisture in the air on a mild day than the soil?

How deep is the topsoil?

Do other trees manage to anchor themselves and grow in the soil?

What kind of plants are growing well in the proposed orchard area at the moment?


At the moment I'm wondering whether you'd be wise to hedge your bets with a wide range of rootstocks and varieties.
Perhaps also consider some varieties known to cope well in drier, sandier/coastal or chalky soils.

I don't think Edward VII* and Court Pendu Plat will have a problem with pollination because earlier-flowering varieties may still have the last of their flowers open and will have "contaminated" bees with pollen which the bees may carry on their hairs for several days after visiting a flower. Bumblebees are particularly good for pollinating apples days after they last visited a tree, whereas honey bees are too efficient and thoroughly clean themselves of pollen.
It is said that one bumble bee is as effective as ten honey bees because bumbles clean themselves less well of the pollen that covers them and can fly in colder weather than honey bees.
Provide some nesting options for bumbles.

*
I'd bet good money that one day Edward VII is listed as triploid or aneuploid (aneuploid could be considered to be similar to triploid). I just think that because it's not a commercial variety that nobody has bothered to test it. After a while you get a feeling for triploids - I had been calling for a number of apples varieties - including Ashmead's Kernel - to be listed as triploid for some years before DEFRA finally confirmed it with genetic analysis a couple of years ago.

[Sylvan]

I'm not worried about the size. I'm worried about them dying because the lack of sufficient water stops them fighting disease.

The MM106 rootstocks are only a couple of feet tall so we could move them from the top of the slope if we have to (though we'd rather not have the extra work) and I daresay we could even move Scotch Bridget (though his nibs won't be happy). Do we need to?

[FB.]

Keepers have a selection of apples on MM111 - most of which are more Northern or Scottish varieties.
Keepers Nursery UK | Fruit trees for sale | Buy Online | Mail order

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[Sylvan]

The topsoil is mostly about a foot deep, though we do have to keep adjusting the position of planting holes because we often hit rock within a few inches.

The problem is that we have already ordered the trees. We might be able to change 7 of the 21 MM106 to M25. Should I ring the nursery and ask them to do that?

Are my varieties likely to be OK? I tried to go for hardy and/or early varieties but I thought all we had to worry about was cold temperatures and strong winds.

At the moment there's only grass in the proposed orchard area. (SHEEP - the devil's gardeners!). Lower down there are willows, oak, ash, lime, horse chestnut, bird cherry and silver birch, but it's wetter down there.

What is aneuploid? Sounds intriguing

[Sylvan]

Actually a lot of the sand in that picture was under the rock. Hubby had given up because his spade had hit what he thought was a shelf of solid rock. I went in with a trowel and discovered that it was rocks of varying sizes and types all wedged together, with sand underneth - so that could be why it was so dry. Presumably it would have been easier for the water to run downslope than try to burrow through the stone.

[FB.]

What is aneuploid? Sounds intriguing

In simple terms, treat aneuploid the same as triploid - both mutations usually result in poor pollinators for other varieties.
It's not a term that's commonly used because it's not cost-effective to prove it and it's easier just to label a suspected aneuploid as "triploid" and save confusion.

A diploid apple (which is the normal state) inherits 17 chromosomes from its mother and 17 from its father, to create 17 pairs of chromosomes (34 in total).

Occasionally (about 1% of pips) the mother accidentally passes its full 34 chromosomes to an offspring, which also receive an additional 17 from the father. That makes 17 triplicates of chromosomes (51 in total). Such a tree is triploid.

When a triploid tries to divide its 51 chromosomes into two, the offspring could receive virtually any number from about 17 up to about 34. Let's say the offspring receive 26* from the mother and the usual 17 from the father, for a total of 43.
The offspring has too many chromosomes to be diploid (34), but too few to be triploid (51). In most cases it results in small, shrivelled, non-viable pips (hence why many triploids don't produce many good pips) but occasionally - as in the case of Down's Syndrome - it can be compatible with life.

*
For the same reason, pollen from triploids is of low viability because most of it contains an unusual number of chromosomes, different to the normal 17 present in pollen from diploids.


I once read a study on seedling from triploids.

An experiment with hundreds of seedlings from triploid mother x diploid father crosses produced:

1% haploid (17 chromosomes)
2% diploid (34 chromosomes)
93% aneuploid (35-50 chromosomes)
1% triploid (51 chromosomes)
3% tetraploid (68 chromosomes)

So you can see triploids produce a lot of aneuploids in their offspring. Annie Elizabeth and Edward VII are both seedlings from the triploid Blenheim Orange. Annie and Edward show many features of triploids (or aneuploid), including:

Leaves which are large, thick, dark and quite rounded in shape.
Quite good disease resistance and tolerance of difficult conditions.
Large, attractive blossom.
Unusual seeds or pips.

If I sat two people in front of you, one normal and one with Down's Syndrome, you'd almost certainly be able to tell which was which. It's the same with apples.

Peculiarly, while extra chromosomes in humans creates many problems, in apples it often gives them better resilience and better disease resistance - at the expense of poor fertility and not producing many offspring.

[Sylvan]

Yes, I've discovered that now ("Too late" was the cry ). Maybe next year, for the northern field, if we can afford them. For the moment we have to go with what we've already ordered. Should I try asking the nursey to change some of my MM106 trees for the same varieties on M25?