Orchard layout questions

[Sylvan]

That's very interesting. Thank you.

It sounds as though triploids and aneuploids are the ones to go for if you have challenging conditions.

[FB.]

From what you've said I would probably try an equal mix of MM106 and M25, so, yes, I'd see if you could swap some of the MM106 trees for M25.

Even with your original list you'll have quite a lot of variation in tree size anyway as a result of the growth rate of the scion. Court Pendu Plat and D'Arcy Spice on M25 may be smaller than many of the MM106 trees because of the slower-growing nature of CPP and DS.

I'd say that your list of scions looks promising.

But see what some of the other experienced fruity people have to say before rushing to change your order - maybe someone in a similar area to you will offer a useful comment.

[Sylvan]

Thank you

[FB.]

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I would do something like this picture, with M25 and MM106 alternating in the rows, with a view to being able to remove half the trees at a later time if they don't do well or if they do too well (although the second picture shows the MM106 trees removed and M25 being allowed to fill the space, you might find that for some reason you want to remove the M25 and leave the MM106).

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[Sylvan]

But if we didn't remove any of them wouldn't the bigger trees cast too much shade for the smaller ones to thrive?

We're aiming for self-sufficiency as far as possible. At the moment we have vast amounts of rhubarb and Victoria Plums (we had over 200lbs of plums this year) and a big old cooking apple tree. In the new place we won't have so many plums (we've planted a Shropshire Prune, 5 Damson Merryweather, 2 Victorias, an Opal, a Marjorie's Seedling, a Jubilee, an Avalon and an Oullin's Gage - though that last one was from Lidl, so it could be anything - but they're not going to give us anything near the amount we've been getting from two mature trees) and only the apples we're planting now. We're on a very limited income so we don't want to be howking anything out if we don't have to.

[FB.]

But if we didn't remove any of them wouldn't the bigger trees cast too much shade for the smaller ones to thrive?

Apple trees on vigorous rootstocks never stop growing, albeit slowly. The picture I've drawn is how they would manage old orchards on vigorous rootstocks.
Apple trees grow relatively slowly (about 0.8m per year for the first few years, then 0.4ft for several more years once cropping begins, then 0.2m per year once they're fully cropping in their teens).
So by planting at (say) 5m it'll take about twenty years to fill the space. After about twenty years the canopies will be touching and some trees will have to be cut back considerably - or removed.

That's how old orchards were managed. Full use of the space was achieved for the first two or three decades by having a slightly dense planting, or by having the faster-growing and quicker-to-bear-a-crop soft fruits (or plums) in-between.
Then in later decades, to make more room, the "interplant" berry crops and eventually every second tree was removed (the wood is useful).
Run some searches on the "Quincunx" layout of orchards - which is what my picture shows.

My suggestion was basically to ensure that because of your quirky growing conditions you'll have a functional orchard whatever happens to the success or failure of the two rootstocks.

I originally planted M25-class trees at about 6m, but have realised that in my soil they grow so slowly that I can halve the spacing and still be unlikely to have to remove every second one in the remaining third-to-half of my lifetime.
Take a look at the size of Yummersetter's trees to see that they don't grow particularly fast, especially when planted in grass and with minimal care.

[Sylvan]

At the moment my plan looks something like this, but if the MM106 apples need to go further down the slope, where it's not so dry, I could make the top rows M25 and then put rows of MM106 further east, although that would mean the tallest trees were higher up the slope, which didn't seem ideal to me.

Prunus cerasifera

crab

P. cerasifera

crab

P. cerasifera

crab

P. cerasifera

crab

crab

Arbroath Oslin 1.8m

Irish Peach 2.1m

Sops in Wine 2.4m

Bloody Ploughman 2.4m

Beauty of Moray (M25) 2.6m

Scotch Bridget 1.8m

Keswick Codlin 1.8m

crab?

crab

Scotch Dumpling 1.8m

Brownlees Russet 1.8m

Beauty of Bath 2.1m

Pitmaston Pineapple (M25) 2.6m

"D'arcy Spice (M25) 2.6m

White Melrose 1.8m

American Mother 1.8m

Norfolk Beefing 2.4m

Annie Elizabeth 2.4m

Court Pendu Plat (M25) 2.6m

Ashmead's Kernel (M25)2.6m

crab

Ellison's Orange 1.8m

Howgate Wonder 2.4m

Newton Wonder 2.4m

William Crump 1.8m

Galloway Pippin 1.8m

Katy 2.4m

Edward VII (M25) 2.6m

Discovery (M25) 2.6m

crab

Rajka 1.8m

Adam's Pearmain (M25) 1.8m

Winter Gem 2.4m

Striped Beefing (M25) 2.6m

Ribston Pippin (M25) 2.6m

[Sylvan]

Giving me something to search is very dangerous. I'll be up all night now

I was planning to plant the M25 trees at 6m, with 7.3m between rows (I think? 20ft and 24ft in old money ) and the MM106s at 12ft each way (well... in staggered rows but it doesn't make a lot of difference) but if I can halve the spacing it will make my plan a lot easier to work out (never was much good at geometry...).

So you're saying we can plant the currants and rhubarb between them for the first few years?

[FB.]

So you're saying we can plant the currants and rhubarb between them for the first few years?

Currants and rhubarb are much faster growing and start producing at a younger age. Both will grow in semi-shade and may be able to remain a permanent fixture under the trees as long as they aren't too near the trees in the early years and crowd-out the tree roots.

Some of your trees on M25 (such as Court Pendu Plat or D'Arcy Spice) have no chance of making 6m in size in any reasonable timeframe. In fact I'd be surprised if they even make 4m in any reasonable time, although D'Arcy Spice is one of those varieties that grows very slowly but never stops growing and can make quite a large tree eventually if left unpruned.
Pitmaston Pineapple is also a bit of a small tree too.
Certainly your M25 trees will show a wide range of growth rates and mature sizes.

If the sizes on your plan are the allowed space, you might have it right if the soil is dry but if the soil isn't as dry as you think you would need to be prepared to take out half the trees in the future.
I'd probably give the MM106 trees 2.5m (8ft) and the M25 trees 3.5m (11.5ft) to be on the safe side. It just feels a better balance considering the unknowns of your soil and rainfall.

[Sylvan]

The sizes on my plan are the heights I'm expecting them to reach. I was giving the MM106 12' x 12' and the M25 trees 20' x 24' (and where an M25 was next to an MM106 I was splitting the difference and making it 16').

If we give everything 12' that would make the planning easier

We've given the plums 12' and the hazels 8'.

[FB.]

In my experience, hazels are at least as vigorous as MM111 and some are as strong or stronger than M25.
Cosford cob is very vigorous. Call it M25.
Butler is vigorous. Call it MM111.
Gunslebert and Kentish Cob are medium vigour. Call it MM106.
Gustav Zeller is semi-dwarf. Call it M26.

[yummersetter]

How are you planning on controlling the understorey? We have pretty lush grass / bramble / nettle growth here which needs a ride-on mower to keep from overwhelming the trees, so I allowed three times the width of the cutting deck between the trees which came to eleven ft along the rows (MM106) and then put a 12ft gap between the rows. I also put in four 40x75ft 'glades' in with bushes and unusual trees planted in groups.
I don't know many of your varieties but of the ones I do, I'd not bother with Beauty of Bath, Owen Thomas is better flavoured, and I would include James Grieve, its a brilliant pollinator.

[Sylvan]

I've never heard of Owen Thomas yummersetter. I'll have to have a little search
I came to the conclusion James Grieve wouldn't do very well for us.

We're using a scythe (and long-handled shears near the trees ) at the moment, but it'll probably have to be a ride on mower once we're up there.

Our hazels don't have owt posh like names FB.
We don't expect nuts in our climate. We'll be coppicing them on an eight year rotation.

[boundtothesoil]

I've probably missed something in this thread, but why have you got so many crab apples in your plan? With such a wide range of apples, I can't believe that crabs would be necessary for pollination. Personally, I can't stand them -there's only so much crab apple jelly you can make. Seriously though, I suspect that crab apple trees often act as pest/disease reservoirs for the apples (i.e. codling moth/scab etc). With respect to orchard hygiene, I doubt that anybody thins/removes diseased crab apples - there are simply too many of them. On the other hand it is quite likely that you would do this on a regular basis with apple trees -for example as you walk through your orchard every few days.
I'd scrap the crabs and stick in more apples! Or a line of pear trees around the margins.

[seneca196]

That's how old orchards were managed. Full use of the space was achieved for the first two or three decades by having a slightly dense planting.

fascinating stuff. How does dense planting affect:
i) growth of tree (height & spread)
ii) health of tree
iii) fruit quality and yield

I'd be very interested to know. Also, presumably orchards which are geared towards commercial use must also feed and irrigate. Those too must affect:

i) growth of tree (height & spread)
ii) health of tree
iii) fruit quality and yield