Fruit tree height

[Sylvan]

Some of the fruit trees we planted this year have already reached, or surpassed, their estimated mature height in our conditions. Our Shropshire Prune, for example, was taller than 1.2m when it was delivered.

So how does that work? Are they likely to not grow much more now that we've planted them?

[orangepippin]

What estimated mature height were you given for the Shropshire Prune? It would be unusual to see a fully grown Shropshire Prune less than 2m, even on a dwarf rootstock. On a vigorous rootstock it would be quite a bit more (even in the Pennines).

Plums and damsons usually grow very vigorously for the first few years. A newly-grafted plum tree can easily grow 2m in its first year, and its new shoots will then probably grow another 1m each in the second year. Damsons are perhaps not quite as vigorous, but they will still be growing quite keenly for several years unless conditions are really harsh.

[starloc]

As they get taller most fruit trees start to droop and go wider till the branches arch downwards , then grow more branches from the top side of the arched branches and again they go taller till they get long and droop to arch downwards.

I bought a 5 year old victoria plum a few years ago and the next year it was massive around 12 foot, now with no pruning its twice as wide and about 8 foot, lower than it was as it has bent over to form a real tree shape

[FB.]

Some of the fruit trees we planted this year have already reached, or surpassed, their estimated mature height in our conditions. Our Shropshire Prune, for example, was taller than 1.2m when it was delivered.

So how does that work? Are they likely to not grow much more now that we've planted them?

Nurseries can produce tall maiden whips or half-standards. But when planted into poorer soils the trees virtually stop growing.
So it remains a 2m tall stick unless pruned and then it becomes a 1m tall by 1m wide branched bush-tree.

Size estimates are basically an average of height and spread in normal conditions but nursery conditions are able to produce large trees. Plums love wet weather so they probably grew really well last year.

[Sylvan]

Shropshire Prune is supposed to be a weak-growing variety. It's on St Julien A and we have poor soil, average rainfall and a short growing season, so that should equate to about 1.2m?

Though I was wondering whether our short growing season might be offset by the fact that we have over 18 hours of daylight in midsummer.

[FB.]

I had a Victoria on St.Julien A and after pruning for a bush-length stem it filled-out to become a small bush about 4ft in size and would only grow a few centimetres each year after that, with new growth mostly just counterbalancing old shoots or damaged shoots which needed removing.

[Sylvan]

So should I prune my prune?

[FB.]

Shropshire Prune is supposed to be a weak-growing variety. It's on St Julien A and we have poor soil, average rainfall and a short growing season, so that should equate to about 1.2m?

Though I was wondering whether our short growing season might be offset by the fact that we have over 18 hours of daylight in midsummer.

Did it make all that growth in perfect nursery conditions or did it grow that much after you planted it?

One thing that I've found is that a variety which is weak-growing in some soils and climates can be surprisingly strong in others. It depends on what its favourite conditions are.

Some examples:
The apple Laxton's Epicure (and Fiesta/Red Pippin) is supposed to be weak-growing (and they appear to be in acid soils) but in my alkaline soil I find them to be very vigorous and their growth rate is much greater than most other varieties; they appear to be capable of making trees of the largest size.
MM106 is supposed to be a half-standard rootstock only slightly smaller than MM111. It is indeed similar to MM111 in higher rainfall regions, but in drier regions MM106 is only suitable for cordons while MM111 remains suitable for half-standards .

[Sylvan]

It made the growth in perfect nursery conditions. We only planted it this spring.

[Sylvan]

Should I prune my fruit trees after planting?

[seneca196]

As they get taller most fruit trees start to droop and go wider till the branches arch downwards , then grow more branches from the top side of the arched branches and again they go taller till they get long and droop to arch downwards.

I bought a 5 year old victoria plum a few years ago and the next year it was massive around 12 foot, now with no pruning its twice as wide and about 8 foot, lower than it was as it has bent over to form a real tree shape

So the weight of the side branches pulled the height down? Interesting, but a bit puzzling. Strange, the connection between height and spread. It seems that to get a tall narrow shape, Apples/pears need to have their side branches shortened to direct growth upwards, like a column. But if the same side branches are bent downwards, it too can make the tree grow upwards more quickly.

[starloc]

Yes, the weight of side branches does pull the overall tree height down...even if you leave one giant trunk growing upwards it will eventually bend over and another branch will grow on the other side to balance it out, I have a few bramlies that I have done this with , they went upwards to a 10 foot single trunk with small branches and gradually bent over and formed a much lower hight bush tree that was about 15 foot across.

Many plum trees are wide drooping trees, they grow upwards at first, the trunk on my victoria plum tree on delivery was about 5 or 6 foot high the branches took it much higher they had been pruned before delivery, the new branches grow upwards, then longer and longer, I chopped back the branches a bit grow more branches themselves and get longer and longer....like any tree, so the weight of the branches gradually bends the branches from being 5 foot above the 6 foot trunk, to being not much more than the 6 or 7 foot high but very much wider

On almost any fruit tree if you bend the branches downwards they tend to produce more fruit buds than upwards growing branches some people tie them downwards until they get used to being downwards, but once bent they also grow more shoots at the top but not as much on the ends, so the tree then rapidly gets higher as the new branches grow, until the new branches bend and again the hight comes down again

I never prune plum trees unless necessary due to the risk of infection, but having plenty of space I tend not to prune trees at all once they are formed into a shape
I only remove excess growth from the floor to stop insects or central branch overcrowding , the only trees I prune are in pots and they get the tip of every branch pinched every 8 inch of growth unless I am planning on putting them in the garden at a later point, pinching all the time gives lots of fruit in a small tree ideal for a pot.

In the garden I have many seedling plums about 15 foot high never pruned other than to keep the lower branches off the floor to keep insects out but also to save me from the 3 inch thorns,they are very narrow trees, but as soon as they start to fruit the weight pulls the branches down, once they bend down they stay that way and gain the normal rounded plum tree look about 8 foot high

[seneca196]

Never seen plum trees in containers. Plenty of apples, pears, cherries, nectarines and peaches, but not plums. Always thought there must be a good reason for it, but never bothered to find out. Which varieties do you grow and on which rootstock? Do you train them to a pyramid or spindle shape? Presumably, gages too would be possible. Unless you have space and the right conditions, it's difficult to get a decent plum tree - I have lots of partial shade in my garden and it's quite exposed. Container growing would work quite well.

[starloc]

In the UK I grow everything in pots now, so I can move them around if I want to , If I am keeping them in pots I grow most of them as pyramids , however many of them are just left to it as a bush or small tree
I have a few trees on pixy rootstock that are very unsucesfull, growing very nice looking trees but virtually no fruit , mostly though I buy them mainly on St Julian A and a few myrobalan rootstock as they need something to make them vigorous in pots , I have peaches and nectarines St Julien rootstock and some again on pixy the pixy are again no use at all for giving fruit, St Julian seems the best to keep under control and give lots of fruit , myrobalan needs a ladder to get fruit off the tree and the pots blow over as the trees get too high

Even the cheap aldi trees in a 50L pot the victoria plums are around 10 foot high after 2 years, but the Aldi peach trees are only 6 foot but growing millions of branches, no idea of the rootstocks on the aldi trees

Mostly I grow them in 50 to 100L pots, but the larger victoria plum had such big roots when I bought it its in something like a 250L pot

The only problem growing in pots is watering , i have hosepipe to each one and a timer to water them , during the summer they get watered every day twice for 15 minutes , even now they still need watering every couple of days,
When there is fruit on a tree growing in a pot they need regular watering to stop plums splitting

[seneca196]

That's great, well done you. Given me an idea or two about getting a plum and gage tree in my difficult to position garden. The pots sound enormous and heavy, particularly the 250l. I plan to go around 80-100l, so it's not impossible to shift once or twice a year. I'll put it on the sunny patio in the growing season and move it to the shady, sheltered spot during the winter. Tell me, did you start from scratch (maiden or feathered whip) and make the pyramid, or did you convert another pre-existing form? Heard lots of good things about Aldi trees and people often get decent results from them. A friend at an allotment gets them when they are reduced later on ("so cheap there's nothing to lose"),just soaks them in a bucket for a few hours and then plants them straight away. Does it every year and his collection runs the entire length of his plot!