Espalier help

[Jaypeg]

Hello there
I am planning to grow some espalier apple trees in my north London garden along my south facing and west facing garden walls. I think I have room for four trees. I am really keen for them to be espalier in form and would like them to be sharp tasting late croppers as I will mostly be using them for cooking. I don't need big yields, just good sharp apples which are not too prone to illness if possible.

I recently went on an apple tasting day and really liked the following apples (all quite tart. I really am not into sweet apples)

Ashmead's kernel
Blenhain orange
Bow Hill Pippin
Peasgood nonsuch
Sunset
Upton Pyne
Tydeman's late orange
Calville Blanc d'Hiver

I have been advised only to have 1-2 Triploid trees and that these would need pollinator's of the same variety either side of them. Although that said, my dad has had a D'arcy spice in his garden for years which is triploid and bears every year. So I am not sure what to do.

I thought I'd start with the Blenhaim orange and choose others to go with it. The Bow Hill and the Calville and upton pyne and tydeman's late orange are all listed pollination partners but other than that I am finding it hard to make a choice.

Can anyone help advise?

Many thanks
jay

[boundtothesoil]

[QUOTE=Jaypeg;1172337]
I have been advised only to have 1-2 Triploid trees and that these would need pollinator's of the same variety either side of them. Although that said, my dad has had a D'arcy spice in his garden for years which is triploid and bears every year. So I am not sure what to do.
/QUOTE]

I don't think this is correct advice. There is definitely no requirement to have the same 'variety' planted either side of the triploid variety. The advisor probably meant that you should have two non-triploid varieties 'within the same flowering/pollination group as your triploid' planted either side (variety A to pollinate the triploid and variety B to pollinate variety A, and vice versa).

However, it is very likely that in a 'north London garden ' situation you don't need to consider planting varieties on the basis of their flowering/pollination group compatibility, as there may be a hundred or more apple trees planted within a one mile radius of yours, many of which will be in suitable pollination groups. Bees can fly for miles, and cross pollination should not be a problem.

[FB.]

I think if you only had two diploid pollinator trees and six triploids you'd still get good crops.
It doesn't take much pollen and the bees may bring it in from other apple trees in nearby streets and gardens.

Most apple trees crop poorly when young because the bees are only really interested in bulk-harvesting of flowers, so the bees would rather harvest from a big tree with thousands of blossoms than they would from a small young tree with just one blossom cluster.

Plant more or less what you want. When the trees are mature the bees will do the rest.

Some varieties such as James Grieve, Bountiful, Spartan, Discovery, Beauty of Bath, Scrumptious seem to be particularly good pollinators.

[yummersetter]

I'm surprised some of the apples were available for tasting in September, they wouldn't be here. Blenheim and Ashmeads are a long way off being ripe in Somerset ( though London can be about 3 weeks ahead). Tydeman's Late Orange never ripened here though I left it on the tree till late November and kept it till Easter. Peasgood is a great apple ( in more than one sense), Sunset is pretty sweet and both are ready now. Blenheim takes a long time to come into bearing and makes a huge tree.
BUT more than anything, it seems like an awful waste to plant sunny walls in one of the warmest places in the UK with apples that you want to taste sharp. You have the perfect spot for pears, gages, apricots, peaches, grapes there, and you'd be lucky to find those home-grown and naturally ripened in any shops.

[orangepippin]

BUT more than anything, it seems like an awful waste to plant sunny walls in one of the warmest places in the UK with apples that you want to taste sharp. You have the perfect spot for pears, gages, apricots, peaches, grapes there, and you'd be lucky to find those home-grown and naturally ripened in any shops.

Good point.

[FB.]

I'm surprised some of the apples were available for tasting in September, they wouldn't be here. Blenheim and Ashmeads are a long way off being ripe in Somerset ( though London can be about 3 weeks ahead). Tydeman's Late Orange never ripened here though I left it on the tree till late November and kept it till Easter. Peasgood is a great apple ( in more than one sense), Sunset is pretty sweet and both are ready now. Blenheim takes a long time to come into bearing and makes a huge tree.
BUT more than anything, it seems like an awful waste to plant sunny walls in one of the warmest places in the UK with apples that you want to taste sharp. You have the perfect spot for pears, gages, apricots, peaches, grapes there, and you'd be lucky to find those home-grown and naturally ripened in any shops.

Maybe the Tydeman's apples were the Early Worcester rather than the Late Orange.
TEW was ready about a month ago ago. TLO are not ready yet - way too early.
For me TLO usually part from the tree in early November (a few days before D'Arcy Spice) and need to be kept in storage for at least a few weeks for the sharpness to mellow.
With the really late varieties - which also include Sturmer Pippin and Norfolk Beefing - you really do have to have long mild sunny autumns of the type common in their native area of East Anglia.

My Blenheims were......erm.....quirky this year in that they ripened (not very well-coloured) abnormally early a couple of weeks ago.
My Fiesta (Red Pippin) were ripe very early last year (early-mid-Sept) but they're only just beginning to colour-up at the moment and probably picked in the next week or two.
My Scrumptious still haven't ripened properly - normally they're ready in late August. It's peculiar for a "second early" not to ripen after long cold winters/short/cool summers but I'm wondering whether the Golden Delicious ancestry is showing itself in difficulties ripening the fruit in shorter/cooler seasons.
I picked Spartan a few days ago.

[Jaypeg]

Thank you!

Hi everyone
Thank you so much for your advice. Sorry for the long, rambling reply.

Bountothesoil - This is what I really wanted to know. My neighbour has a big old apple tree but has no idea what kind it is. I have no idea how you go about identifying them. As for other gardens in may area. My only concern is that it's disconcerting the number of people who either deck their whole garden or build onto it. I don't have hugely high hopes of them having many apple trees, but I guess I just need to give it a go and see what happens.

FB - The guy I spoke to at Keeper's nursery said more or less the same thing. He recommended growing at least 6 trees. I said Ideally I would like to grow 4, maybe 5 at a push as I have pillars in my wall and 4 would fit nicely into the recesses these create. I am also slightly concerned about biting off more than I can chew. I would rather start off with a few and see how I do before I go crazy. I know apples require care, pruning, disease prevention. I thought I'd see how I do with a small number before I create a rod for my own back.

What you say about blossom alarms me too as we have a huge cherry tree overhanging the back of the garden. All the bees will prefer that I can tell!

I tried a bountiful and liked it so maybe if I add that then I will have a strong group. I was just trying to avoid modern varieties as I am keen to keep the old ones going and I love the history behind them.

Yummersetter - You are correct, a lot of the apples weren't really ripe. The guy at Keeper's would tell me to imagine them sweeter. It was the best he could do as they only have an open day once a year so I am not certain I would have access to them at the time of ripeness. I am also eager to get going as I have already waited a year so that I could remove a big fox den, clear the garden (derelict for years), discourage the foxes and then try to enrich the soil slightly. And pick out bricks and lumps of concrete (Still many remain I'm afraid).

Fair point on the aspect. The only problem I have is that I love sharp apples more than anything else. I use pears in cooking and had considered two pears and two apple trees originally but pears don't pollinate apples so the guy at Keeper's put me off. I didn't even taste any! I had 600 apples to get through. I admit I only got through 20 or so.

As for apricots and peaches. I have always found them disappointing compared to ones from sunnier climbs. I don't have a huge experience of them, just neighbours produce. Whereas, my knowledge of apples is greater as my granddad had an orchard and it just brings back fond memories. My dad is also pretty keen on apples so it keeps it in the family. As for grapes, I removed a huge grapevine from the garden recently. It had been there years! I was in two minds about it but it was so vigorous that my neighbour complained about it, it grew over everything in its path and the grapes were not that good. But don't worry, there's another huge one on the other side of my neighbours garden and her mother grows grapes so I feel like we have grapes covered.

As for the Tydeman's, the label said late orange. It was probably under ripe but that's often good for me as I like them sharp. I can eat crab apples off the tree so it's not a problem. I guess the expert at Keeper's would know more.

Anyway thanks everyone, I shall think on everything you have all said.

[FB.]

What you say about blossom alarms me too as we have a huge cherry tree overhanging the back of the garden. All the bees will prefer that I can tell!

Cherries flower much earlier than apples. The bees may even be drawn to your area after the cherry has finished because they've been used to sending large numbers of bees in that direction.
If your new trees eventually have hundreds of flowers on them the bees will not want to miss an opportunity. But while any fruit tree is young - in any location - it's not going to be of much interest to the bees.
Think of it this way: if you had to cross a busy road to pick up a 1p coin laying in the gutter on the other side, would you bother? (equivalent to a small young tree with one cluster of blossom).
But if there was a £50 note would you be more persistent? (equivalent to one big tree)
And if there were £1 coins scattered along the pavement every few metres would you "harvest" those too? (equivalent to several medium-size trees)

The bees will come if there's enough pollen and nectar to make it worth their effort.

[Jaypeg]

The bees will come if there's enough pollen and nectar to make it worth their effort.

Thanks FB. I had quite a few bees on my initial flowers this summer so I am hopeful.

[FB.]

The grass under a number of my trees is planted with spring bulbs - especially crocus - which are among the first flowers available to bees in spring.
I do my best to have a variety of bee-friendly plants AND NO CHEMICALS * in the garden for as much of the year as possible because the more I support the bees the more they'll return the favour.

Some garden plants below which bees especially like, covering a range of seasons from late winter to autumn (soil type and climate can limit what will grow in your area):

Helleborus niger ("winter rose") (late winter)
Snowdrop (late winter-early spring)
Crocus (early-mid spring)
Fruit tree blossom (late spring)
Foxglove (early summer)
Chives (summer)
Runner beans (summer)
Lavender (late summer)


*
Chemicals are very potent and residues can contaminate (or remain in) the nearby environment; bees and other beneficial insects are highly sensitive to chemicals, with chemical residues making bees less able to fight off mite-type parasites and diseases and is a contributing factor to the decline in bee numbers.
Where bees may be at risk of exposure it is not safe to use any chemical at any time. If you spray the plants and kill the bees (especially if they carry it back to their nest), don't then turn around and complain that you're not getting good crops.

.

[Jaypeg]

Hi FB
I have got Hellebores and columbines ready to go underneath the trees already growing. I had a beginning spattering of foxgloves and hollyhocks this year and have collected all the seeds in the hope I will have many more this year. Good tip on the bulbs, I will get some in. I found that bees seemed to love the globe thistle, scabiosa and cosmos I planted this year so I will put more in for next year. I also have two unhealthy looking honeysuckles growing on the wall already which I might try and revive if possible. I am in the process of getting to know the garden so not sure what will flourish. I have seen that you can get bee hives to put in your garden. They're out of my price range but I'm interested to know if these are helpful or not.

Beepol Bumblebee Hive - Harrod Horticultural (UK)

I haven't really looked into the upkeep of the apples yet. I need to do some research. My granddad use to band his trees and put moth traps up, but other than that, I am unaware he did much else. I need to ask my mum. I'd never considered the effect of chemicals on bees, thanks for the headsup.

[FB.]

We've tried bee boxes but they won't use them - the earwigs do!
Bumbles prefer to nest in previously-occupied hedgehog boxes, mouse nests, piles of twigs/leaf litter and in composters. It's as if small animals do something (or leave a scent?) to their nest while using it which later attracts bumblebees to use the abandoned nest.

Bumblebees are pretty harmless unless you directly annoy them. They're never looking for a fight and will back off unless you're directly interfering with (touching) their nest or blocking their entrance - in which case you can expect to get some very nasty stings.
I once accidentally disturbed a bumblebee nest which was in the drainage holes of a flower pot so I didn't know it was there until I'd scooped-out a handful of compost from the top to find myself with a handful of bumblebees.
The pain of the stings is indescribable and left me trembling in pain for about half an hour - including one sting which went under my thumb nail and had to be pulled out with tweezers (you know hopw sensitive skin is under finger nails?).

[Jaypeg]

FB your story gives me the shivers. I am not scared of bees, I am mortally terrified of wasps. I used to refuse to go and harvest the Victoria Plum tree and have bad memories of rotting fruit lying in the grass being covered in wasps. Not the picturesque vision most people have. I am not growing plums needless to say. I thought the hive might be too good to be true.

I have been thinking a lot about all the replies I have had.

I have looked at my list and edited it thus (just in case you are wondering). I have listed my plus and minus points. I am worried about the minus points especially if they affect being able to grow them espalier in probable poor soil which will be dryer than it is wet. There are other points but the ones listed are the ones that matter to me personally. i.e. I am not bothered if they are a poor bearer or biennial as I don't need that many. I have also decided to go for 5 trees as I just can't choose!

1. Blenhaim orange
Plus: Taste, Family connection, Old variety, Cooker.
Con: Vigorous

2. Ashmead's kernel
Plus: Taste, Old variety
Con: Triploid. Susceptible to bitter pit

3. Peasgood nonsuch
Plus: Old variety, Cooker, Easy to grow, Pollination capacity
Con: Susceptible to blossom frost

4. Tydeman's late orange
Plus: Taste, compatible with bow hill pippin
Con: Modern (1920/40s), quite popular, vigorous

5. Bow Hill Pippin
Plus: Pollination capacity, most dessert like edible out of the bunch
Con: Susceptible to bitter pit

I am in two minds about the pippin or the below

6. Calville Blanc d'Hiver
Plus: Classic french cooking apple, Old variety
Con: Quite popular

My father would like to me grow an Orleans reinette but that's yet another triploid and I hear it doesn't keep well and is susceptible to scab. I also liked Braddick's Nonpareil, yet another triploid. And Upton Pyne, another triploid! I have discounted Sunset as it's too modern and popular.

I also need to consider root stock. The guy at Keeper's said M26 or M106 based on the fact I would like them to be small and espalier. I don't know much about this, but thought that the vigour of the tree affects the success at which it can be kept small and healthy. If I try to grow a small vigorous tree will I have to prune it so much it suffers? That is my one worry with the Blenhaim. Also, do I choose the same root stock for all or is there some rule I should follow? I just wouldn't want someone to stand in front of it and say 'well any sensible person wouldn't have done that!'.

Each of my recesses is about 4-5m wide. (although I might double check that tonight). The wall is not that high hence I thought m26 better as it produces a smaller tree, but does that mean small roots which dry out quickly in dry weather?

[orangepippin]

I may have misunderstood your sizes but MM106 or MM111 or even M25 will be better if you want to fit one tree per 4m-5m recess. M26 would not be anything like vigorous enough, except possibly in the case of the Blenheim Orange.

[FB.]

FB your story gives me the shivers. I am not scared of bees, I am mortally terrified of wasps.

A single bee sting is usually much worse than a single wasp sting.
But a wasp can sting multiple times.
Wasps don't generally look for trouble until late summer and autumn when they get a bit grumpy.
It's not in the best interests of any creature to waste resources on fighting because they have lives (and nests) to be getting on with.