Espalier help

[FB.]

I may have misunderstood your sizes but MM106 or MM111 or even M25 will be better if you want to fit one tree per 4m-5m recess. M26 would not be anything like vigorous enough, except possibly in the case of the Blenheim Orange.

I agree.
To some extent it will depend on scion, soil and management but M26 is only suitable for small espaliers.
Basically whatever the size the mature tree might reach is about the same span that can be achieved with a properly-managed espalier.
For a 4-5m espalier MM111 or M25 may indeed be required unless the soil is good, the scion particularly vigorous or the tree well-tended.
Not spraying a tree against aphids (insecticide which may also affect bees) can result in quite a debilitating quantity of sap being sucked out by the aphids and potentially "dwarfing" the tree much more than expected.

[yummersetter]

As I grow both, if I were you I'd substitute Orleans Reinette for the Blenheim. I have no scab on my six OR trees, though the Blenheims are covered in it this year, and they come into bearing much earlier than Blenheim and are similar but better flavoured. I have two espaliered ORs and they're covered in fruit this year, at seven years old. The Orange pippin site says they're light in bearing but I don't find that to be true, it matches Ashmead's Kernel here. As they are exceptional cooked as well as fresh, we've usually eaten all of ours by Christmas, so storage beyond that isn't a problem.

[seneca196]

hi,
interesting thread. Have you made any decisions yet re. overall shape, number of tiers, rootstock, support, potted/bare root, supplier etc. Beware of too much deliberating and agonizing over the endless possibilities involved in something as seemingly straightforward as planting an apple tree; it can end in decision paralysis. Suffice to say, I went round in circles and eventually just decided to plant what I liked to eat. I'm on a hiding to nothing, but what the heck. If it all goes "apple" shaped, I'll pop to the local farmers market and console myself with a big bag of their apples. Still, it's fun learning and will give you invaluable hands on experience for later planting. Anyway, one of my future projects involves espaliers and I'm doing some preliminary research. My long term plan is to try a number of fruit trees in a few different forms, using different rootstocks.
Good luck with your project. (It can become quite engrossing, bordering on obsessive and you may find you're spending too much of your waking life thinking about it. Don't worry though, help is always at hand and these sites are really helpful.... and addictive reading.) May the fun continue.

[Jaypeg]

Decision time

Have you made any decisions yet re. overall shape, number of tiers, rootstock, support, potted/bare root, supplier etc. Beware of too much deliberating and agonizing over the endless possibilities involved in something as seemingly straightforward as planting an apple tree; it can end in decision paralysis.

Hello all
After discussing it through with my father I have decided to start off with just three trees and see how I get on. I decided to choose one to represent each parent. A Blenheim orange to represent my mum 40 strong childhood orchard, then an Orleans Reinette for my dad as he poured over the Apples of England and picked it out especially. Then a Bow Hill Pippin to help pollinate them. If I do well then I might add some others later but after measuring my space, I realise that it's much smaller than I originally thought. I got carried away basically.

I have a 6m span across the back South West facing wall which gets all the sun from midday through to the evening. I thought the Blenheim should go there as it's quite vigorous. Then along the west facing side I actually only have 11 metres in total and the top end is much shadier so I thought I would put the other two in the middle and end of this space in the last 8 metres (4 metres each).

I am ambivalent about the Pippin. I will take the nursery's advice on whether it will help the other two out. My dad would like me to plant a Permain because it is rare, but I think we'll just bank than idea for a while. My mother would like me to return to my Grandad's old house and get a cutting of an apple tree there; also a banked idea for the time being.

Now I just need to choose rootstock. I am thinking the Blenheim can be larger as it has more space and might help it out as it's a vigourous tree. Any advice? As seneca196 said, I think I just need to get going on this!

Jay

[boundtothesoil]

My mother would like me to return to my Grandad's old house and get a cutting of an apple tree there; also a banked idea for the time being.

I think there's no time like the present for rescuing trees of personal value. If it were me, I'd order a couple of MM106 rootstocks from the nursery when you order your trees, plant them/pot them out straight away. They only cost a couple of quid. Then get four or five nine inch cuttings of this seasons wood from the tree in question, store them in the fridge until late february 2014, then graft the best two of these onto the rootstocks. (Check out Stephen Hayes's saddle or whip & tongue grafting videos on youtube if you don't know how to graft). They won't take up any space at all for a couple of years, but you'll have your grandad's tree in the bag. And if you're unlucky and the grafts don't take, you can probably try again the next winter using the same rootstocks

[seneca196]

Just had a thought of having a go at one of these myself. Never attempted to train a fruit tree before and quite like the idea. Have a few questions that the helpful experts on these forums might have some answers to, and as you're also attempting them, you may find any advice useful.
* What makes a suitable choice for an apple espalier? any spur bearer presumably, or are some varieties more suited? Trees are often described as upright, spreading or upright spreading - presumably all things an espalier will need to do, so do they all suit? (never fully understood those terms, as all except ballerinas grow up and then spread! If a variety is said to be compact and tidy, is that just the classifiers opinion, or is there a rule?
* m106 seems the most popular ready made espalier, but are larger rootstocks better if you are making your own (more vigorous, which I guess can get you a better height and width. Kind of figured bigger would be better, as better overshooting the proportions wanted, than less. If you wanted 4 tiers but only 2m width, m106 might not make it. You'll have a level wires that never get to see a tree!)
*Is there a formula for working out the finished size/root stock? How is the standard tree size,eg. 3-4m high related to tiers and width? One is a 2d tree the other 3d!
* Am I over-thinking it and should just stick one of my favourite apple trees on m106 in the ground and have a play!

[Jaypeg]

Rootstock

Hello everyone
I am finally putting my order in to Keepers and sorting out some stakes and wires. I have decided to go with three trees maybe more later. The big back wall will have the Blenhaim orange. It has 6-7ft of height and 12ft width to play with so I am going to put posts in with 4 tiers of wires and order it on M26.

M26 12 feet apart 6-8 feet high (I was going to allow 6ft in height)



Here is the proposed espalier layout I have drawn up. I am planning to put up two posts with wires across. Is this okay? Should I have a post in the middle for the tree so three posts in total?

Then I am going to plant two smaller trees (Orleans reinette & Bow Hill Pippin) on the side wall which is 4ft high. There is a trellis above the wall which is 2 ft high so I could make the posts 6ft high. I just liked the idea of them perfectly fitting against the brick wall and being no higher than your average person.

I have up to 8ft width each to play with, but I was hoping to put them a little closer together as the beginning of the wall is in shade a lot from the house.

I am having problems deciding on rootstock. M27 would fit perfectly, but then I worry about having other plants in the flower bed which will leech moisture away. It might also get a bit dry there in the summer and I worry that M27 won't like all that. Plus it's not the best soil. It's basic London clay soil which hasn't been enriched much plus a bit of compost dug in last year which I will repeat again before planting.

Would M9 be better? Would it have to be taller than 4ft? I know it says it does, but I thought if the soil is poor and the variety not overly vigorous I might get away with it. Or I could go above the wall into the trellis space if that is needed.

Any advice would be really welcome. I am not worried about yields really or staking them for life. I am a bit worried about the level of care they need as I am a bit of a fair weather gardener and it can get quite dry in summer. I did manage to water our garden daily during the summer which makes me feel I might be able to keep them pretty moist, but if we go away on holiday for a week I wouldn't want all my hard work to be lost so if M9 is slightly more robust than M27 then that might swing the deal.


M9 4-6 feet apart 6-8 feet high (I was going to put them 7ft)
M27 3-5 feet apart 4-6 feet high (I was going to put them 5ft)



I would like three tiers but I have been advised by Keepers to make it two. Is this right? Would M9 give me three? Would I need to add height?

Am I overthinking all this? Sorry for the ramble!

[boundtothesoil]

I don't think I can give you the kind of detailed rootstock advice that others can, mainly because these days I only grow on MM106 and M26, and I do hardly any cordon or espalier training. However, I used to, and the biggest frustration I experienced was always having trees of insufficient vigour to give me a decent length of new growth to train/play with each year. This can be very annoying, when, for example, your new tier of branches are only three or four inches long. M26 is particularly runty under my growing conditions and I would much rather have too much growth to play with, than too little. Hence, I'd consider using a more vigorous stock than you might initially have contemplated.

[Jaypeg]

That's great advice! I am worried about my poor soil making them small. I don't want them to be so spindly that they aren't worth the bother!

[Jaypeg]

Espalier first season progress

Hello everyone
An update on my trees. I decided to plant the biggest blenheim Orange on M26 which I bought from Blackmoors last Autumn. I put metal spikes and wooden supports in. No wires yet as I just strapped canes to the two lateral branches. I pruned all branches and planted and over several months I gradually tightened the strings until the first tier lay horizontal.



Please excuse the scraggy wall. You can see what I am trying to cover up!

I now have two problems.

One. I planted the tree a foot away from the central post. My first tier seems miles away. Should I move my posts? Move the tree? If so, when and how. Or should I try training my branches backwards. Will that look stupid?

Two. The tree has grown and I am am unsure if I am suposed to do an Autumn prune at this young stage. It's not like I am encouraging fruit at this stage. I want my first tier to be strong though so perhaps I should be pruning now? Any suggestions?

Here is a current picture



I also have a diagram of the branches as they are growing



Can anyone tell me what to prune and when? Should I be training my second tier yet? Any help would be splendid, really splendid!

Jay