raised bed planting - oblique apple cordons

[seneca196]

Hello folks - I've got a low, raised bed that is 4.8m x 0.9m and 30cm tall in a south facing direction (though not full sun all day, due to surrounding tree shadows) and was wondering if I could put some apple cordons into it? It was previously used for vegetables, but I fancied a change. The soil is quite fertile and moisture retentive (some clay, but grit, sharp sand manure were added) and being a raised bed, I can feed, mulch and water quite easily.
Apple cordons seemed to be an obvious choice based on the area being thin and long. However, I'm unsure on rootstock and spacing - M9 or M26? How many could I get in with close spacing - Could I get 5 with 90cm between them and 40cm for the ones on the ends (those close to the bed's edges.) Would that spacing suit both M9 and M26 or would I get 5 with M9 and only 4 with M26? Unsure, so thought someone may have a view on it, or tried something similar. Happy for any opinions out there

[Two_Sheds]

What would you be supporting them with?

Apples and pears: growing and training as cordons / Royal Horticultural Society

[seneca196]

I've got some posts set up (not part of the fence, as the raised bed is about 20cm away) and plan to attach wires along long them once I've got the cordons planted. I'll loosely tie a strong bamboo cane to each cordon and then attach the cane to the wires... I think that's how it's done. Might also loosely tie the actual cordon to some of the wires depending on how strong it is. I'm assuming an M26 is a bit more robust than the M9. If I could get 5 in, I may decide to swap an apple variety for a pear. I'm assuming they look pretty similar, so the odd pear won't upset the overall look of the bed. Maybe find a rootstock comparable to M9 or M26 - Quince C is really all there is, so depends I suppose.

[orangepippin]

You could also plant dwarf apple trees on the M27 rootstock. Being regular (albeit very small) trees they are easier to look after than cordons, and you can avoid the hassle of summer pruning, and you will probably get more apples. They can be planted 1m apart.

[zazen999]

I'm going to ask...why must they be in a raised bed? Why not behind in at the usual ground level? The reason I ask is that I have a medlar in a raised bed that I inherited and it can never be put at the correct level as it is raised, it needs far more water than it gets because it is raised and it's a PITA. Love it but it's at the wrong level!

[Paulieb]

Can't really speak from experience but my plans for this winter, in part, are to plant an apple/pear hedge down the north side of my garden, so will get plenty of sun. And I can tell you I've spent hours researching this.

I'll be using MM106, and Quince A for pears, as they should have similar growth rates. They'll be vertical cordons planted 3ft a part I really ending up maybe 12-14ft tall. 'The apple book' suggests 2.5ft for less vigorous rootstocks.

[seneca196]

The raised bed was previously used for growing vegetables (mostly root veg eg. carrots - for reasons of nice long vertical growth in better soil, also looked better than on the lawn!) Rather than carry on with that, as the family lost interest eventually, I thought I'd try something different. Never grown fruit before thought thought it would be good to try and learn. It's my best spot, so decided to dedicate it.

I thought cordons would be better than small trees, as the fruit had more access to light and would ripen properly producing better flavor. Only the one side of the tree would see any sun, presumably it would have to be pruned to let more through. Also, cordons look neater and more formal - must keep everyone happy and it's enough that we haven't filled it with ornamentals! The oblique angle is also meant to be beneficial. As to quantities, I'm not too bothered with more and would prefer variety and hopefully, better quality. I only got stuck on the rootstock question, as some places say there is very little between M9 and M26, in terms of overall size and required spacing, Just that M26 is better at looking after itself and managing all that nature (and my unskilled hand) can throw at it.

MM106 seems too much for my modest raised bed and they would get out of control. Besides I am doing something similar to your hedge, but on a smaller scale (also quite like the "oblique" look.)

So I'm undecided on M9 or M26 and if I can fit 5 of either, I'm favouring M26. May need to toss a coin soon as don't won't to leave it too late.

[orangepippin]

M27 trees trained as small pyramids or spindlebushes will allow light into all parts of the tree. Fruit quality will be as good as with cordons. However cordons will look more formal and attractive.

M26 cordons will be quite a bit bigger than M9. M9 scores when it comes to productivity when grown as conventional trees.

[seneca196]

M26 cordons will be quite a bit bigger than M9. M9 scores when it comes to productivity when grown as conventional trees.

Most sources I've come across suggest the size and spacing only varies by 0.5m. I had thought it was a good compromise between M9 and 106. Obviously the theory on paper is easier than practical experience, but then that's where I inevitably fall down. Hence my quizzing the helpful growers on these forums, as they have actually done it. Much more insight than the books I've got!

If M26 will be bigger than M9, perhaps I need to rethink the supporting system. Wondering if I can get them in the ground and make a more robust, but temporary framework (may look messy), but then in spring build something better. I have more time then and conditions are more favourable. The chaps down the allotments suggested I should get things planted early/late Nov and make sure they are all secure. Then come back in spring and build around them as they begin to wake up. Any thoughts? Sounded good to me.

[BearGardener]

I've got 10 or so apple cordons. Half as oblique half as 'upright'.

They are all on M26 which seem to have grown quite well and robustly without getting out of control. This is on somewhat light and sandy soil, well fed and watered.

Mine are about 70cm apart.

[DuncanM]

I've used a similar sized space (I think) in my garden to plant 6 apples trees and train them as espalier. 3 posts (one either end, and one in the middle with 3 trees either side), some trellis wire and et voila.

[seneca196]

Thanks guys. I know true comparisons between peoples garden "projects" is not possible due to different conditions (soils, climate etc) and other variables such as health of the tree to start with, and variety chosen etc etc. but it's nice to know that my 90cm M26 spacing is ok, particularly if Beargardeners are 70! Incidentally, did you notice a difference between upright and oblique? eg. size of tree, growth rate, health, fruit yield etc. You have close to controlled experimental conditions by having both

DuncanM - is your space around 5m too? AND you got 6 M26AND espaliered them Can't quite picture it. That's either crazy or pure genius . Or I'm picturing something quite wrong. We need pictures or a drawing! If not a detailed description as I'm a bit dopey

[BearGardener]

Thanks guys. I know true comparisons between peoples garden "projects" is not possible due to different conditions (soils, climate etc) and other variables such as health of the tree to start with, and variety chosen etc etc. but it's nice to know that my 90cm M26 spacing is ok, particularly if Beargardeners are 70! Incidentally, did you notice a difference between upright and oblique? eg. size of tree, growth rate, health, fruit yield etc. You have close to controlled experimental conditions by having both

I think you could go as close as 2 foot spacing quite comfortably.

My trees are still young so cannot compare yields etc. Upright ones have perhaps grown slightly more. I am aware that oblique cordons are supposed to yield a bit more but have no first hand evidence of that.

Much will depend on the variety chosen as well as the initial state of the tree.

[seneca196]

Yes, I read somewhere that if vertical they put on more growth and get taller, but the this slows down when placed at an oblique angle. The slant promotes fruit production. Wonder if it would be possible to do both, by leaving them to grow vertically to get bigger and then after a couple of seasons, put them at 45 degrees to promote fruit production. I suspect the wood be inflexible by then and bending would most likely snap the cordon .

[seneca196]

Just a quick question (this may seem a bit dim of me), but which way should my oblique cordons point? I've made a sketch to try and explain. As the row is side on is facing the south, I had assumed it would not make much difference. I had got it into my head that they ought to be laying back, so they will be facing the sun in the morning and the tops will point towards the sun as it sets. Not clear I know, so here is my idea



This is how I thought they should be positioned.