Apple rootstocks again (sorry)

[Philthy]

I was reading through some of FB's comments on rootstocks. Quote: "rather than plant a dwarf tree and have to take care of it, why not plant a vigorous tree and neglect it such that it behaves like a dwarf but without the care requirement"?

That certainly makes sense. I'm looking to get a couple more apple trees, in a space which is semi shaded by my neighbour's mature ash. I'm strongly considering MM111, which I ruled out for the first tree I planted - KOR - as I thought it make too big a tree. I reckon MM111 would be a safer bet in damper ground (still clay soil), where the sun doesn't reach so well. If I can keep it naturally undersized, hopefully the final heights of these trees will be on par with the KOR growing on MM106 in full sun.

So, what qualifies as neglect for MM111? Extremes of wet and drought don't appear to trouble the rootstock much, afterall isn't it frequently used where other rootstocks have failed in these conditions? Failing that would a low vigour scion make for a similar sized tree?

Many thanks as always (apologies if I'm rehashing old posts on this subject).

Phil

[orangepippin]

MM111 has a tendency to be somewhat more vigorous than MM106, but not in all situations.

Also the amount of care which dwarf and semi-dwarf trees need is not as great as might be implied by "the books". If you have average soil and are able to water during dry spells, then dwarf trees on M9 or M26 rootstocks will be very happy, and probably more productive than more vigorous trees.

Conversely, in average soil, with some watering (or in an area with reasonable rainfall) you may find that MM106 and MM111 both get too big for your needs, now matter neglectful you are.

[yummersetter]

Would your neigbour's mature ash tree be sending its roots as well as its shade in your direction?

[Philthy]

I'd say definitely, it's situated on our boundary (south facing). It doesn't make for dense shade, and the grass under it on my side is probably the healthiest patch in the garden. In summer it never totally dries out; even when the rest of the lawn has gone brown, that area will retain it's green.

[yummersetter]

I was just wondering if it will take some nutrition from your soil and limit the growth of your trees. I've had that problem when trying to grow vegetables too close to mature trees - it might depend on the tree species though.

[Philthy]

Possibly.. in addition to existing tree roots, there are also roots from rhododendron, and hawthorn hedge, all competing. But they all seem to grow very well, so not sure..

Do you think M116 with an average vigour scion would make a tree big enough to suit the half standard form?

You mentioned in a previous reply that KOR was one of your favourite varieties; what others score top marks for you?

[yummersetter]

I'm sorry, I'm no expert on rootstocks, I'm more interested in varieties, how they taste, behave and their history.

I had 40 old traditional apple trees and bought 125 more at an auction where they were sold in alphabetical batches, so I'm exploring about 50 varieties from Norfolk Russet to St Edmund's Pippin which are just coming to a good cropping age.
This year, the new delicious discoveries have been Red Melba, Oaken Pin, Peasgood Nonsuch, Princesse, Queen Cox, Reine de Reinette, Rev Wilkes and Nutmeg Pippin.
From the older trees, KOR, Orleans Reinette, Pitmaston Pineapple, Cox, Fortune, James Grieve and Golden Russet have been better than ever. A lot are still to ripen, they'll be picked soon and stored for the New Year.
Every year is different, trees become mature or die, some are biennial or their pollinator is, the weather is helpful or destructive, pests and diseases can blitz through. And flavours and textures change as the fruit ages, apples of one variety will taste different every week over several months if late cropping.

[Philthy]

It sounds fascinating yummersetter.. I've read several articles praising the exceptional flavour of Queen Cox; it's even better than the original Cox's OP apparently. I can see myself getting quite impatient waiting for my own tree to come into bearing!

I note from your reply you're growing several examples of the Cox lineage.
From your experience, do you think its reputation as a problem tree is deserved or do you happen to have ideal conditions for it where you are?

[orangepippin]

I think Cox is one of those varieties that is just fussy about where it lives. In general it does better in the drier south-east, but even there it can be unhappy, whilst I am sure there are many Cox trees in apparently less suitable areas which are thriving. I think some of the bad press about Cox goes back to the 1950s Defra (or perhaps it was MAFF at the time) advice which was something like you couldn't plant orchards north of the Thames.

Queen Cox has the advantage of being self-fertile, which naturally brings better fruiting, although most Cox trees sold these days are in fact one of the self-fertile forms developed decades ago.

If you like Cox apples, it's worth having a look at Rubinette. You may conclude, as do many who try it, that it is "better" than Cox. It's certainly very good, and probably a bit easier to grow, although you absolutely have to thin it to get decent fruit size.