Apples: diploids, triploids..... are you sure?

[FB.]

In recent years, there have been the "shock" discovery of a number of old varieties which were assumed to be diploid but have since been proven to be triploid by genetic testing - Ashmead's Kernel being the real shocker for nurserymen.

I remain convinced that there are still many "undiscovered" triploids out there, which we're still assuming are diploid and which we may be relying upon as pollinators when actually they may be poor pollinators and explain why some people have pollination problems or irregular cropping.
But if we were to take the time to look at them closely - their leaves, their blossom, their fruit, the seeds in their fruit and other features, I think we'd soon say "of course it's likely to be triploid - it certainly looks like one even if it hasn't been formally confirmed as such!"

So I acquired a few pictures of apples for a little bit of a fun test.

Each post with pictures below will contain one variety known to be diploid, one known to be triploid and one which I am suspicious about.
Most of the varieties are reasonably well known, even if not in the best-seller lists nowadays. But I have removed their names so as not to bias opinions.

I would like forum members to take a guess as to which one is which in each of the postings (no need for names: just state which you think is triploid, which is diploid and which one is listed as diploid but I suspect might one day turn out to be triploid).
Maybe we can also have a debate.
In a few days I will reveal the exact names of each variety.

Please have a go at guessing, even if you're wrong. If you can explain why you thought a certain picture was diploid or triploid that would be even better.

Thanks,
F


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[FB.]

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Picture set 1:

1. Cox's Orange Pippin. Diploid.

2. Bramley's Seedling. Triploid.

3. Grenadier - listed as diploid but strongly resembles the triploids and has the triploid-like immense disease resistance and resilience, yet is claimed to be both self-fertile and a good pollinator (but why are the pips of such poor quality if it is so fertile?).


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[FB.]

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Picture set 2:

1. Golden Delicious. Diploid.

2. Blenheim Orange. Triploid.

3. Reverend Wilks - listed as diploid but strongly resembles the triploids and has the triploid-like immense disease resistance and resilience, yet is claimed to be self-fertile (but why are the pips of such poor quality if it is so fertile?).


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[FB.]

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Picture set 3:

1. White Transparent - listed as diploid but strongly resembles the triploids and has the triploid-like disease resistance, resilience and shows extreme winter-hardiness, yet is claimed to be self-fertile (but why are the pips of such poor quality if it is so fertile?).

2. Gravenstein. Triploid.

3. Court Pendu Plat. Diploid.



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[FB.]

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Picture set 4:

1. Peasgood's Nonsuch - listed as diploid but strongly resembles the triploids, yet is claimed to be self-fertile (but why are the pips of such poor quality if it is so fertile?).

2. Discovery. Diploid. The pips are numerous and well-formed, in a well-formed core, but the pips are probably whitish because the apple needed a few more days to ripen properly.

3. Belle de Boskoop. Triploid.

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[FB.]

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Picture set 5:

1. Jupiter. Triploid.

2. Saturn. Diploid.

3. Northern Greening - listed as diploid but strongly resembles the triploids and has the triploid-like resilience, including being very hardy and ideal for the Northern regions (but why are the pips of such poor quality if it is a fertile diploid?).


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[RedThorn]

Pic set 1 : diploid, triploid, triploid
Pic set 2 : diploid, diploid, triploid
Pic set 3 : triploid, triploid, diploid
Pic set 4 : diploid, triploid, triploid
Pic set 5 : triploid, diploid, triploid

Based exclusively on seeds and core structure

Complete novice no idea on characteristics and to give a blind novice choice did not google what are the characteristics

[FB.]

Pic set 1 : diploid, triploid, triploid
Pic set 2 : diploid, diploid, triploid
Pic set 3 : triploid, triploid, diploid
Pic set 4 : diploid, triploid, triploid
Pic set 5 : triploid, diploid, triploid

Based exclusively on seeds and core structure

Complete novice no idea on characteristics and to give a blind novice choice did not google what are the characteristics

Thanks, Redthorn.
Answers coming to you via Private message in a few minutes.

It's OK if people want to do some research before answering because the main purpose of this topic is to broaden our thinking and to perhaps encourage people to be cautious of using, as pollinators, varieties which are currently classed as diploid but haven't been proven and which seem to resemble triploids.

Certainly if I feel the need for a pollinator tree, I look for a variety that doesn't have suspicious characteristics, such as some of the following (but not every feature will be present in a triploid, however the perfect diploid shouldn't have more than about one, maybe two of these features):
Large leaves.
Round-oval shaped leaves.
Dark-coloured leaves.
Very shiny-glossy leaves.
Thick, tough leaves.
Large blossom - often listed as "attractive".
Thick shoots.
Less well-branched.
Old varieties with strong disease resistance (because the extra chromosomes of triploids may offer more genes to try to resist disease).
Cope well with difficult conditions (whether it be low-fertility soil or a hardy tree or grows well in situations where others struggle).
Also, if they are poor pollen producers, then we should probably expect them to be poor pip producers too because the genetic abnormality affects pollen viability and the same genetic abnormalities would in theory affect pip viability too.

[arpoet]

I always thought that triploids is a cream for, er.... tender areas, and diploids were a type of nappy.
Shows how wrong I am.

[boundtothesoil]

Picture set 1: diploid, triploid, diploid (suspicious).
picture set 2: diploid, triploid, diploid (suspicious)
picture set 3: triploid, diploid (suspicious), diploid.
Picture set 4: diploid (suspicious), diploid, triploid.
Picture set 5: triploid, diploid, diploid (suspicious).

Very interesting challenge. I'm not confident that I've got more than one triploid correct, if that!

I chose on the grounds of pips, size and anything looking like Blenheim Orange, Bramley's, Tom Putt or Annie Elizabeth, varieties that I should know.

[veggiechicken]

My answers - based on assuming that the unevenly shaped apples with slightly random cores might be triploid and the neat, regularly shaped and well balanced apples would be diploid.

1. D ?T T
2. D T ?T
3. T ?T D
4. T D ?T
5. ?T D T

[FB.]

Picture set 1: diploid, triploid, diploid (suspicious).
picture set 2: diploid, triploid, diploid (suspicious)
picture set 3: triploid, diploid (suspicious), diploid.
Picture set 4: diploid (suspicious), diploid, triploid.
Picture set 5: triploid, diploid, diploid (suspicious).

Very interesting challenge. I'm not confident that I've got more than one triploid correct, if that!

I chose on the grounds of pips, size and anything looking like Blenheim Orange, Bramley's, Tom Putt or Annie Elizabeth, varieties that I should know.

Thanks btts.
Private Message coming your way in a few minutes with the answers.

[FB.]

My answers - based on assuming that the unevenly shaped apples with slightly random cores might be triploid and the neat, regularly shaped and well balanced apples would be diploid.

1. D ?T T
2. D T ?T
3. T ?T D
4. T D ?T
5. ?T D T

Thanks VC.
PM with the answers coming your way in a few minutes.

[FB.]

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Here's an old picture comparing several different apples leaves, supporting the comment earlier regarding triploids tending to have "large, dark, rounded" leaves (although not every triploid shows every feature).

But my point is: if the leaves are often a giveaway, why shouldn't the fruits (and the viability/fertility of their pips) be a clue too?

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[FB.]

Anyone else want to have a go before this thread is left to fall into the archives?