Growth Rates? Various trees in pots

[AllInContainers]

I appreciate there are a myriad of variables which affect growth rates from soil/compost, to location/aspect, weather and so on. I'm hoping for more of a comparison between trees really.

Background: I had an apple, fig and cherry last year, and branched out (arf arf) into more trees this year. My recent purchases are medlar, persimmon, dwarf pomegranate, red filbert, decaisnea fargesii (dead mans fingers), and are all essentially forked sticks of up to between 4ft and 6ft in height dependent on the plant, with the branches cut right back for packing and shipping. I'm trying to get a feel for how much spread to expect over the next 12 months from the current 12" span. I'll be keeping everything in containers (all my plants are), but am trying to plan the layout based on approximate end of year size rather than start of year.

Can anyone give any insight as to whether to expect more/less/similar growth rate to apple and cherry? Thanks in advance

[FB.]

Depends on many things, but maybe the following will help:

There seems to be pretty much a direct relationship between amount of rainfall (or watering, or irrigation) and the growth rate of the tree - as long as you don't water it so much that the roots rot or suffocate!
Also a direct relationship between summer temperatures and the growth rate.
And with soil depth/fertility.

So a tree in a mild, wet climate on a deep, fertile soil would be huge - even on semi-dwarf rootstock.
On the other hand, even a very vigorous rootstock might make a small, slow-growing tree in a cold climate on a droughty soil that's shallow and infertile.

Then we note that not all varieties grow at the same rate, or have other quirks.
A variety such as Court Pendu Plat makes a slow-growing, rather small tree.
D'Arcy Spice makes a very-slow-growing tree (maidens on MM106/MM111/M25 can be as small as 1ft tall!) but it keeps growing a little each year all through its life, so can eventually make a very large tree if left unpruned.
A variety like Gascoyne's Scarlet makes big maiden trees, often its vigour making them well-feathered and more resembling a two-year-old tree of other varieties. GS is quite capable of growing 2-3ft per year in all directions in average conditions and is capable of making trees of an enormous size - not least because it tends to need punishing growing conditions (drought, starvation and a shallow, sandy or chalky soil - and be grafted to a comparably tough rootstock like MM111) to persuade it to crop well rather than head for the heavens with lots of new shoots, and because it is a substantial tip-bearer which complicates pruning.


So if we took two identical trees and planted on in SouthWest England and the other in East Anglia, the one in East Anglia would only grow about two-thirds as much and would probably start cropping earlier in life because less water = more stress/less growth = more fruit buds for the following year = less growth the following year as the fruit draws a lot of the tree energy.

Hard pruning in late winter will increase vigour and delay the energy-demanding cropping.

A normal growth rate, in average conditions, for a fruit tree on a common rootstock such as MM106, St.Julien A, Colt and Quince A would be about 3-4ft in its maiden year, then several side branches about 1ft long in its second year (plus about 2ft growth of the leader), then the growth gradually tails off as the tree becomes bushier and spurred-out (fruit consumes huge amounts of growth energy). A mature tree would grow a few inches per year, plus will send a dozen or so "watershoots" straight upwards and they reach about two feet in length.

The pictures below show a one-year-old Maiden MM111 apple tree (about 5ft tall) and what it looked like a year later after planting in below average soil, and with no feeding or watering, with full grass grass cover (grass slows its growth - dwarf rootstocks may not grow at all; MM106 is borderline depending on availability of rainfall). So from a 5ft stick it grew a 2ft leader shoot and several side branches 1-2ft long.

So this is about what someone with average conditions would get from a MM106. If the conditions were good it might be possible to achieve the same with M26.

[FB.]

I'm trying to get a feel for how much spread to expect over the next 12 months from the current 12" span. I'll be keeping everything in containers (all my plants are), but am trying to plan the layout based on approximate end of year size rather than start of year.

Can anyone give any insight as to whether to expect more/less/similar growth rate to apple and cherry? Thanks in advance

Simple answer would be: I'd expect several side branches of about 1ft in length, with perhaps the odd branch reaching 2ft (which you could prune back to 1ft). You might also find that pinching-out the tips of shoots will increase bushiness and branching - and encourage cropping the following year.

In my experience, hazels and filberts are vigorous and easily match an apple tree on a big rootstock such as M25.
But if you're growing in containers you can control the amount of feeding and water. Smaller containers restrict the roots and reduce the vigour. The aforementioned principles lay behind the idea of "fig pits" which are slab-lined planting holes with a lot of low-quality soil and brick rubble to reduce the tree vigour and encourage cropping early in life by making the plant a little hungry and a little thirsty.


I have a some apple and pear seedlings in pots and I manage to keep them extremely small (1-2ft tall) by not feeding and not watering. Seedlings are considered to be among the fastest-growing.

[AllInContainers]

Fantastic info FB, many thanks!

I'll base the newbies on achieving a 3ft max wingspan this year (allowing for branches not being horizontal, and me being in South Yorkshire ). Ideally I'd like them to tessellate (sp?) and fruit at 4-5ft spacings, and I'll arrange according to height/form next year once they've shown their natural template for best use of space yet allowing airspace and preventing rub.

The mental image I have is maintaining a canopy layer of no more than 2-3ft front to back, but allowing sideways expansion - kind of fan trained - but not Beneath this and slightly forward I plan on having ramsons and fruiting bushes to use the air space, and edible daylilies or similar taking up any remaining slack. Woodland fruits on the left receiving sun till maybe 1pm, more exotics on the right receiving sun from noon onwards, with space in between for table and 4 chairs. Total garden width 4m.

One more thing (as Columbo would say). Which would you say is more critical to receiving sun, apple or cherry?

[FB.]

One more thing (as Columbo would say). Which would you say is more critical to receiving sun, apple or cherry?

It very much depends on the variety.
Which varieties do you have?

Some apples, pears, cherries and plums will produce good fruit without much sun, while others need a lot of sun to encourage flower bud formation while others need a lot of sun to ripen the fruit.
"Eaters" tend to become small-sized "cookers" in less sunny locations.
Late-season varieties tend to need more sun and may not ripen at all without sufficient sun exposure. Mid-season varieties are probably the best choice for less sunny spots because they don't need as long to ripen (don't need as much sun) as the late-ripening types, yet they have long enough on the tree to not suffer so badly in terms of fruit quality if we have a couple of months of cool/dull weather in June-July (which covers most of the period when the earlies grow and ripen).

So, for example: the apple Worcester Pearmain will have a better chance of producing good crops in a cooler and less sunny situation than a Golden Delicious. However, while Worcester Pearmain can begin to ripen in my area at the end of August, if I grew one in part shade it might not begin to ripen until the middle of September.
I experimented with a Golden Delicious in part shade (even in the mild climate here in East Anglia) and it will not flower at all - and without flowers there can't be any fruit.

[AllInContainers]

Apple = Jonagold, a Golden Delicious and Jonathan cross. Forecast by the nursery to harvest Aug/Sept
Cherry = Sunburst. Forecast to harvest June/July

Neither blossomed/fruited last year (too young), and this year the cherry is riddled with fat buds, yet the apple is yet to bud, and still clinging onto last years leaves on it's extremities. The cherry did have the better position last year (East wall). On the West wall at the North end, the apple had no neighbouring plants competing height wise, maximum growing season as furthest from the shade cast by the house, and would have sun on the foliage from dawn till after 3pm in mid season. November through January I have no direct light at all

[AllInContainers]

Apple = Jonagold, a Golden Delicious and Jonathan cross. Forecast by the nursery to harvest Aug/Sept
Cherry = Sunburst. Forecast to harvest June/July

Neither blossomed/fruited last year (too young), and this year the cherry is riddled with fat buds, yet the apple is yet to bud, and still clinging onto last years leaves on it's extremities. The cherry did have the better position last year (East wall). On the West wall at the North end, the apple had no neighbouring plants competing height wise, maximum growing season as furthest from the shade cast by the house, and would have sun on the foliage from dawn till after 3pm in mid season. November through January I have no direct light at all

I should add, there will be more competition for light in the afternoon this year, though sun will still hit full on from dawn till noon at least, and thereafter just hit the canopy top

[FB.]

Apple = Jonagold, a Golden Delicious and Jonathan cross. Forecast by the nursery to harvest Aug/Sept
Cherry = Sunburst. Forecast to harvest June/July

Neither blossomed/fruited last year (too young), and this year the cherry is riddled with fat buds, yet the apple is yet to bud, and still clinging onto last years leaves on it's extremities. The cherry did have the better position last year (East wall). On the West wall at the North end, the apple had no neighbouring plants competing height wise, maximum growing season as furthest from the shade cast by the house, and would have sun on the foliage from dawn till after 3pm in mid season. November through January I have no direct light at all

In England, I doubt that Jonagold will ripen until at least the end of September and more likely it'll take well into October.
Being late-season ripening when grown in the UK, I think it would benefit from as much sun as possible - especially as both its parents are both hot-climate-loving and may well have inherited many of their characteristics.

I think the cherry would be more tolerant of some slight shading, especially since the high sun in June-July (when cherries ripen) means that even quite shady gardens get a reasonable amount of sun managing to peep over rooftops and treetops.

The amount of (or lack of) direct sun from November to February won't make any difference because the tree will be dormant. Sunshine only matters while the tree has leaves and fruits.

[AllInContainers]

Perfect! Many thanks FB. All makes more sense now

It'll be interesting to see what happens with my (new, and very late ripening) medlar and persimmon