Confused about training - raspberries, blackberries and loganberries

[IndigoElectron]

I'm planting some of these in the garden and know they need to be trained along a post and wire system. I've got a book which shows how to do this, with clear diagrams. The bit I am confused about is how much space I will need and how many shoots I can expect to get from each plant.

I have 2 summer fruiting raspberry canes, which will be planted about 45cm from each other in a sunny part of the garden. In a different part of the garden, I am planting the loganberry bush and an autumn fruiting raspberry cane (about 45 cm apart), again in a sunny area. Finally, the blackberry bush is going on its own at the bottom of the garden, in an area which has light shade. All plants are against a fence.

The plants are tiny at the moment (just small sticks), so when planted they will have loads of empty space around them. Will the plants eventually take up more space than they do at the moment? I know that they will throw up new canes each year, but I have to cut the old ones back so don't see how the plants will end up being much bigger than they are now. I don't want to leave loads of empty space if it's not needed.

I do know that the raspberries will put out suckers some way away from the original cane, which are basically new raspberry canes - I think I am meant to dig them up and replant them so they can be trained along the wires too. But what about the loganberries and blackberries?

Finally, do my planting locations sound okay? I thought it might make more sense to put the loganberries and blackberries in the same spot, but then wondered if they would grow too big for the space, so decided to separate them. The other reason was because if I moved things around, the autumn raspberry cane would have to go in the light shade.

Thanks for any advice.

[Kristen]

I have 2 summer fruiting raspberry canes

Two canes, or several canes of Two varieties?

2 x canes will give you very few fruit - enough for a nibble when you are walking around the plot, not enough for a bowlful to share with a partner, let alone several friends They will bulk up in time (provided there is space enough in the row for more plants?) but you might prefer to plant more canes so you get enough fruit for a meal? Either way, they will fruit over several weeks, its just that at any one time there will only be a few berries "ready" for picking if you only have a couple of canes.

Ditto your Autumn fruiting ones.

I have to cut the old ones back so don't see how the plants will end up being much bigger than they are now

They will throw up suckers from their roots. The spacing is designed to be right for them over the next few years, so they will look a bit skinny in year one, and maybe year two, but thereafter they will be trying to spread everywhere, if you let them!

I think I am meant to dig them up and replant them so they can be trained along the wires too

You could do, but you would be better off to leave them be, rather than disturb the roots, so that they form good strong clumps. My advice, if you have funds available, would be to buy more plants now (of the same variety) and have somewhere between 5 and 10 plants of each variety. You won't get much / any fruit in the first year, but year 2 onwards you will repat the beenfit

But what about the loganberries and blackberries?

Dunno about loganberries, but Blackberries grow really long, so need wires that the canes can be trained on in a sort of zig-zag style to take up all their length, and make harvesting easy.

[rustylady]

Dunno about loganberries, but Blackberries grow really long, so need wires that the canes can be trained on in a sort of zig-zag style to take up all their length, and make harvesting easy.

Loganberries grow much like blackberries, with really long canes. As you said, they are best trained horizontally along wires. It's not the actual plants (root area) that take up a lot of space, but the canes. This is why you need to leave a lot of space between them.

You can always put other plants (maybe strawberries) between them.

[IndigoElectron]

Thanks Kristen. I have two varieties (one cane of each), plus one cane of the autumn variety. I did ask on here about buying some more, but was advised that because they throw up suckers, I would end up getting more canes over time, so it was a waste of money to buy any more. I am quite limited with space - I only have about a 1 metre border in which to plant the canes, hence me only getting a small number, because I know they need to be planted at least 30cm apart. I guess raspberries might not be the best use of space, but I did want to grow some, and I assume I can plant lettuce, spinach etc in any bare ground that is left. And who said anything about sharing them with a partner?

It sounds like the blackberry bush will end up being huge, so I'll keep it on its own then.

[IndigoElectron]

Thanks Rustylady. I'll keep the blackberries and loganberries separate then (with the autumn fruiting raspberry near the loganberry as planned).

They are being planted down the bottom of the garden, and I was going to sow some wildflower seeds in the same place. Will it be okay to have them near the berries?

Thanks

[Kristen]

Thanks Kristen. I have two varieties (one cane of each), plus one cane of the autumn variety. I did ask on here about buying some more, but was advised that because they throw up suckers, I would end up getting more canes over time, so it was a waste of money to buy any more

Well, as the saying goes "Ask two gardeners and get three opinions"

I think you've got a bit of a long wait if you bulk up your own ... they need a year or two to form a good clump which will then give you a decent crop. If you split them up each year, to get more plants, then that will delay them making that decent clump IMHO.

I am quite limited with space - I guess raspberries might not be the best use of space, but I did want to grow some

Freshly picked, rather than spending a day travelling to the supermarket before you buy them, they will taste great. I grow 10 varieties, 10 plants of each, varieties that spread the picking season all through the summer - so what? - I'm lucky to have the space, if I didn't I would have a few plants anyway just to be able to enjoy eating them still warm with sunshine, so go-for-it I say

And who said anything about sharing them with a partner?

Even better

[Kristen]

P.S.

I assume I can plant lettuce, spinach etc in any bare ground that is left.

That will be fine in the first year, but not much, if anything, will grow at the feet of Raspberries once the clump is established.

[IndigoElectron]

Thanks Kristen, I like your attitude

I know what you mean about the differing opinions - just when I think I know what to do, someone comes along with another suggestion (my recent strawberry thread being a case in point!). Someone on here said to think of gardening as an art rather than a science, and I quite like that idea. I guess there is more than one way to do things, and what works one year or in one location might not work for someone else.

I think I will hold off buying more canes for now, and see what happens to the ones I have. I've spent loads of money on the garden, which wasn't my intention - I meant to start small but got a bit carried away

[IndigoElectron]

I just have one more question. The raspberries and loganberries have been in the ground for a week already - I planted them in a bit of a rush because they'd been sitting in the shed for a couple of weeks and I was worried they would die. Unfortunately it was only after I'd planted them that I had time to do more research. I think my locations and spacings are okay, but one mistake I made was to not firm the soil around the roots when I was planting them. I firmed the top of the soil but think there might be air pockets lower down near the roots. It's a bit annoying because the box didn't say to do this, I found it on the internet.

Should I dig them up and firm the soil round the roots a bit more, or should I leave them alone?

[Kristen]

I'd leave them alone. If you put some weight on one boot, around the base of the plant (i.e. don't jump up and down on them, or stamp your foot down) and the soil doesn't collapse under you then they will be fine. They need air, at the roots, as well as soil and water.

Mostly planting "firm" is about stopping the plant rocking about. Because its roots have not, yet, grown out into the soil it isn't anchored. So when the wind blows it will rock about and that, in turn, will prevent the roots easily growing into the soil - some of them will get bust off when the plant rocks, and so on.

Another thing is that if there are a lot of air pockets around the roots then those roots won't be able to get to the water in the soil, will dry out, and that bit of root will die - which then puts a strain on the rest of the plant - whilst it is trying to get established.

If you are worried about the plant rocking in the wind then put a stick in and tie it to the plant. Take the stick out in, say, 3 months. Don't tie it too tight, and strangle it!,or tie it with something soft - a piece off an old pair of tights for example. If your garden is very sheltered that's unlikely to be a problem - but staking it anyway, short term, won't do any harm.

If you are worried about air pockets, and roots drying out, then water the plant. (Don't know about down your way, but that ain't a problem we have had around here this season! - so far at least). Newly planted plants need watering, when it is dry, as they haven't yet formed an extensive root network. Make sure you water them close to the stem, where they have got some roots, so that you are providing them with some nursing care, so to speak. Don't give them little-and-often, much better to chuck a whole bucket on and then don't give them any more for a week or so (at this time of the year; in a summer drought they might need watering twice or even three times a week, but give them lots each time, and don't water again "for a while")

[IndigoElectron]

Thanks Kristen. What would I do without you?!

[Kristen]

Thanks Kristen. What would I do without you?!

Read shorter responses from someone else?