Pollinators

[happyhermit]

Most of my apple trees are triploid so I'm planning to plant some pollinators this winter to make sure there aren't any difficulties down the line (I don't know of any other orchards/crabs for miles around). My triploids range from the earliest, Tower of Glamis (optimum poll date 5) through to Dumelow's (15). My current plan is to plant an early Crab apple (Dolgo Pink glow) to cover the earliest variety. Would this be sufficient for the later varieties? If not I thought about grafting a bit of Golden hornet on to the Dolgo, or perhaps planting a small Katy apple as well.

Any thoughts most welcome.

Neil

p.s. just noted that Dolgo may be biennial so presumably I will need a backup?

[happyhermit]

As an afterthought, I wonder if just putting something self-fertile like James Grieve or Grenadier in would cover all the bases? (I read that JG's pollen is fertile even in a cool spring - a likely event for me!)

[boundtothesoil]

Another (back up) possibility would be to graft a few appropriate pollinator varieties onto some of your triploid varieties. I have a mature Tom Putt (triploid) onto which I've grafted Orleans Reinette, Norfolk Beauty, Crimson Beauty, Bakers Delicious and Pitmaston Pineapple. Surprisingly all the grafts were successful although the scions have taken three years to flower.

[happyhermit]

Thanks for the reply. Interesting that it takes three years for blossom. Will have to factor that in.

At the moment I've got two ideas. Firstly plant an apple in group C with self fertility that's a known good pollinator and not biennial; perhaps Grenadier. If the varieties either end of the scale struggle to set fruit then I will graft something else on to this "pollinator tree".

Alternatively plant a crab apple variety that would cover everything and which is not biennial. At the moment Manchurian crab (M. baccata mandshurica) might be an option. I believe this is used extensively for orchards in the US. However at this point I can only find seeds available online. Does anyone know of a different early crab thats not got biennial tendencies?

[FB.]

Thanks for the reply. Interesting that it takes three years for blossom. Will have to factor that in.

At the moment I've got two ideas. Firstly plant an apple in group C with self fertility that's a known good pollinator and not biennial; perhaps Grenadier. If the varieties either end of the scale struggle to set fruit then I will graft something else on to this "pollinator tree".

Alternatively plant a crab apple variety that would cover everything and which is not biennial. At the moment Manchurian crab (M. baccata mandshurica) might be an option. I believe this is used extensively for orchards in the US. However at this point I can only find seeds available online. Does anyone know of a different early crab thats not got biennial tendencies?

Be careful with Grenadier. Despite official information saying that it's self-fertile and a good pollinator, I've seen signs from mine and others' that it could be an undetected triploid.

For reliable pollination I would only go with varieties which have been genetically analysed and proven to be diploid. Preferably those which blossom regularly - and a bit of frost resistance.
Be wary of older varieties as pollinators because many older varieties tend to be triploid (and a whole lot more 'heritage' varieties were discovered to be triploid just a few years ago). Triploids probably survive well through the centuries because they tend to make larger/stronger trees, be more vigorous and more disease resistant.

[FB.]

Manchurian crab (M. baccata mandshurica) might be an option. I believe this is used extensively for orchards in the US.

What grows well over there may not grow well over here. Its flowering time would probably change too.

I would suggest trying to find a variety which isn't too prone to the diseases in your area (scab and canker I would guess) otherwise it will be sickly and harbour diseases for long enough that the diseases can mutate into new strains and start to attack some of your other varieties.

[happyhermit]

Thanks for your advice FB., appreciated as always. The varieties I have seen in papers classed as good pollinators are:

Discovery (C11)
Lord Lambourne (C8) PSF
Katy (C12)
James Grieve (C10) PSF

Do you think any of these would cover both Tower of Glamis (B5) and Lord Derby (D14) or Dumelow's (D15)?

Problem is I don't know what to expect from Green Balsam, Derby or Dumelow's in terms of fertility.

[FB.]

I don't know what to expect from Green Balsam, Derby or Dumelow's in terms of fertility.

I'd guess they're probably all triploid (contrary to popular belief) and therefore of uncertain as useful pollinators.

I think your have probable triploids with such a long spread of flowering times would benefit from two pollinators. Pollinators are best if their peak flowering time is a day before the variety you want to pollinate because it gives the bees an extra day to get themselves covered in pollen from the pollinator tree.

I think you'll struggle to find the perfect pollinator(s) because most of them tend to have pest problems, disease problems or fruit that's nothing special.

Lord Lambourne is thought to be part-self fertile, and my experience with Discovery makes me suspect that it is self-fertile.

I would shortlist the following easy-to-find varieties as potential pollinators, but all of them have one or more issues that you'll need to tolerate:

Beauty of Bath
Irish Peach
Discovery
Red Devil
Ellison's Orange
Egremont Russet
Kidd's Orange Red
Winston
Falstaff
James Grieve
Greensleeves
Katy
Laxton's Superb
Fiesta
Scrumptious
Spartan
Tydeman's Early Worcester
Thorle Pippin
Worcester Pearmain


As far as I'm concerned, the less common a variety in your area, the less likely that diseases will have evolved to attack it.

[Kirk]

Had a similar problem about 20 years ago, woke at 7:20 with the realisation I had 5 triploids. I purchased 2 minarette from Ken Muir and planted these near/in the main apples.

Worked exactly as wanted = pollinated the others.
Think I pick the cooker varietes but cannot recall exactly which, get very large cookers off of one of them still.

Another option would be the minarette crab apples if you wanted to make jelly from them, I added a weeping crap at one stage also. Getting the minarettes meant they were easy to place and as the main ones were desert apples I could get, in this case, 2 cookers and have a difference. Also easy to tell apart.

When I got mine the sole purpose was for pollination, the fact that I get apples from them is a bonus. So don't get too sidelined on selecting an apple for where you are, remember that you want a pollinator which is why I mention the crab apples.

[happyhermit]

Hi Kirk, thanks for the reply. Really interesting to here from someone who solved the problem. I don't suppose one of your triploids was Tower of Glamis? Be interested in which pollinator worked for it.

I think as FB. said i'll probably need to go for two varieties. Unfortunately deer are an issue here so I may try to graft a dual variety tree myself on a biggish rootstock.

[happyhermit]

Pollinators are best if their peak flowering time is a day before the variety you want to pollinate because it gives the bees an extra day to get themselves covered in pollen from the pollinator tree.

Interesting. Do you not subscribe to the view that a given variety will pollinate groups either side of it? Using the RHS groupings, ToG i think is group 1, so I was thinking a group 2 (say lambourne) and something like discovery or katy for the later varieties. But are you suggesting I need a group 1 for ToG?

I would be v. interested in Thorle Pippin as an early, however we hit that same old conundrum, is it a triploid?

[boundtothesoil]

There's an interesting Defra Best Practise document with a section on Pollination and fruit set, link below.

Pollination and fruit set and preventing excessive drop of fruitlets | Apple Best Practice Guide

Another section in the same publication discusses effective pollination periods.

[FB.]

Interesting. Do you not subscribe to the view that a given variety will pollinate groups either side of it?

Yes, a variety can pollinate another in an adjacent group and often two, sometimes three groups away.
The flowers open over a period of a week or so, so the last flowers from a group 1 could be pollinated by the first flowers from a group 3.
But the closer the flowering time of the two trees the more likely pollination will be good due to having maximum number of flowers open at the same time on the two trees.
More flowers means more pollen available which brings in more bees which increases the chance of cross-pollination. When a tree has only a few flowers open the bees might not notice them or might not bother to visit because there's a tree with a lot more flowers open somewhere else.
Bees like to be efficient and bulk-harvest from great masses of flowers; there's no point in dozens of bees flying a couple of miles only to find a few flowers which some other bee colony had harvested a few minutes before they arrived!

Flowering times are not exact. They vary from year to year and peculiar weather (which is not that peculiar in the UK!) can cause a variety to flower with a different group in some seasons or in some areas. Sometimes the winter chill requirement affects when they flower, with each variety reacting differently to variations in the weather.

When I had a James Grieve it always flowered with my pears; weeks before my other apples, even my group 2 Egremont Russet.

Relying on one pollinator is risky. However, in most areas there are enough apple trees in nearby streets to provide pollen for the bees to bring to your trees. More isolated locations are much more likely to have pollination problems.

[happyhermit]

Thats a great link boundtothesoil, thank you. Lots of useful information and this and FB.'s comments makes it clear that I will need take a comprehensive approach to this to get the best chance of pollination. After a quick read through I think I'm going to have to go for 3 or 4 known good pollinator apples or crabs, spread across the full range of dates. Also seek out those that have cold tolerant pollen such as James Grieve, Redsleeves, Spartan, Falstaff and perhaps Fiesta. Also it may be worth looking at varieties that are popular up here, as my guess is that they are more likely to have similar robust pollen qualities.

I don't think insects will be a problem, plenty of bees, bumbles etc and lots of gorse all round., but late frosts and generally low ambient temps will be.

Its funny, had I seen that link before setting up my orchard I might have been put off. Nearly everything about my site is negative. However, my trees seem to be really happy here. Early days I know, but I think its always worth having a punt. If these produce fruit in the next 5-6 years I will be very chuffed indeed. If they are still producing for my kids in 20 years time, well, what can I say!

Incidentally if anyone knows of varieties with good pollination performance in cold conditions could they post, perhaps with a link. Could be of great use to other members.

[FB.]

I don't think insects will be a problem............but late frosts and generally low ambient temps will be.......Incidentally if anyone knows of varieties with good pollination performance in cold conditions could they post, perhaps with a link. Could be of great use to other members.

James Grieve
Worcester Pearmain
Egremont Russet (biennial)
Discovery
Falstaff
Fiesta (some biennial tendency)
Tydeman's Early Worcester
Spartan (biennial but very fertile and pollinates others well in cool springs)
Ellison's Orange (biennial but fertile as for Spartan)

A potential weak point for all of them are reports of lack of resistance or susceptibility to canker (and in some cases scab). Canker resistance is not that common among apples, and most of the varieties that have some resistance tend to be triploid or look suspiciously like triploids.

Probably Katy too, given its Worcester x James Grieve parentage. Katy is claimed to have some resistance to canker.

If you're isolated enough that pollination concerns you, it could be that you're far enough from other apple trees that diseases may not reach your trees, so you might be able to take a chance on less resistant varieties.
However, young trees often bring canker with them from the nursery (from superficial soil contamination, rain splash, latent infection or outright visible canker infection) and if any young tree develops significant canker in its early years on stems which grew in the nursery, then it was probably nursery contamination.
Young trees such as this are often a lost cause (and risk spreading disease to their neighbouring trees) and are best removed.

With your current trees being young I wouldn't be in a rush to get some pollinators. It would be quick and easy to put in a few 2-3 year old M9 or M26 cordons or graft some yourself if you suddenly feel a need for pollination.