espalier apple size question

[seneca196]

Hi,
I was wondering what the estimated size would be for an espaliered apple on m106? The thing is I have 5.6m and would ideally like to get two into it. I had hoped to limit their width, but it would mean arms of approx. 1.4m per side. Giving each tree 2.8m each. I thought I could then try and create more tiers - 4 or 5. In effect, I would be reducing width and increasing height. Is this possible? I was wondering if a 2.8m total width and 4-5 tiers (2m +) height would work. My soil is average to good, but quite heavy and moisture retentive.

Generally speaking, what are the approx. dimensions for a 4 tier apple on m106? I can't tell if when 3m is mentioned, it is a total width (both arms) or just each arm on either side.

Also, are the dimensions of a pear on QA the same as an m106 apple?

[Kristen]

You can get more cordon's per metre, than Espaliers, if that would help?

Maybe depends a bit on variety as I believe that vigorous varieties are not recommended for Cordons.

Do you have space to fit a row of step-over apples in front of the main Espalier? (not sure that solves the problem, if you want more tiers, rather than less, but might enable you to squeeze some more in in-front of the others).

Do you have room for a second row of Espalier (I think you only need 6' between rows, but probably 4M between plants, ideally.)

[seneca196]

Thanks Kristen,

Whilst cordons are a more attractive prospect in terms of number of varieties per m space and probably overall yield, espaliers make a great feature and I've always fancied having a go at growing/training one or two. I'm also dead envious of one that I've seen recently!

I understand it's a bit of a challenge and I'm going to need luck on my side - hope an arm doesn't break or go awry, or worse still, the leader refuses to form and I'm stuck with a step over! I had thought of trying a fan instead, as they give a bit more room for error. If a fan arm does not develop properly, I've always thought it would not be as noticeable as an espalier missing an arm or stalled from forming another tier.
I do hope a 2.6m total width is possible, as I'd rather have a pair next to each other. That does mean only 2.8m between trees, but m106 should give them a bit of oomph..... fingers crossed.

[FB.]

Hi,
I was wondering what the estimated size would be for an espaliered apple on m106?

About 3ft high and 4ft wide in my soil.

[orangepippin]

In average good garden soil an MM106 espalier in the UK will eventually get to about 3m+ width and 2m height with 3-4 tiers.

You can certainly go for more tiers to keep the width down.

[seneca196]

Does anyone know which variaties make good espaliers? It would need to be a spur bearer, as tip bearers would not bear fruit. How about vigor? Trees on m106, but small/low vigor trees, would be good or bad? I would go with what nurseries sell, as a guide with what would work, but am wondering whether they espalier almost everything, on the grounds that it might be a favourite variety of someones. No way to find out which are "bestsellers", as that might give an indication of success.

Ashmeads Kernal is vigorous, so may be too hard to control as an espalier, but then, Red Windsor is small in vigor, so might not make enough width and tiers. The whole vigor factor is a bit confusing.

[Kristen]

I went to an Apple Day and chose based on flavours I liked, and ones that appeared to be spur bearers (but website information varied, so no idea if I have got that right for all of them ...).

The plants I bought, intended to be Maidens, were actually feathered, so now 2 full seasons from planting they are at the top of the 4th wire, and several have almost achieved full width of their "section", on the first rung at least.

So, on that basis, if I have some that turn out to "not work well" I won't mind replacing them as it will only be 4 years or so until they have reasonably "clothed" the wires.

Apple Day this year is 21-Oct-2014 (although in practice I found some local nurseries were the weekend before / after and some Saturday / Sunday or both ...)

Apple Day

[orangepippin]

Most apple varieties except pure tip-bearers can be grown as espaliers.

Because producing a pre-trained espalier is an expensive process, nurseries are unlikely to "espalier almost everything", but rather they stick to reliable and popular varieties, which should grow well even if the customer has little experience of the further training.

The issue of vigour of the scion and rootstock (and local climate / soil) would apply to any style of training, not just espaliers. A tree is only hard to control if it is too vigorous for the space you have available. Most nurseries stick to MM106 for espaliers simply because the end result is likely to fit nicely across 2 standard fence panels - but you can use less or more vigorous rootstocks if required.

[seneca196]

By "espalier almost everything" I added, "on the grounds that it might be a favourite variety of someones" because I didn't want to suggest nurseries didn't care if the variety was suitable or not. I meant in order to cater for peoples particular favourite varieties. I personally would prefer to try and grow a variety that was less prolific, but something I liked. For instance, I'd prefer a few problems with an apple that produced a moderate amount I loved, than a bumper crop of one that tasted ok. I could get that in a bag in the supermarket. Similarly, I wouldn't want all my efforts of pruning and training to result in one apple!
Going back to my example, if both Ashmeads Kernel and Red Windsor were on mm106 as espaliers, would the scion vigor have any effect on the espalier?

[Kristen]

I do SO agree. I grow for flavour. That's it. If the variety is a low yielder (not a NO yielder!), disease prone, hard to store, whatever ... that is my preference to a high cropping, mediocre tasting fruit / vegetable. I can buy them in the supermarket ...

[orangepippin]

By definition, growing any variety as an espalier will probably improve the flavour - including high-yielding supermaret varieties.

Indeed, if you ignore the aesthetics, flavour is the main reason for using these forms. The flavour should be better from a combination of the greatly reduced yield which a trained form implies, the much better access to sunlight on to the fruit as it ripens, and (if you are training against a south-facing wall) the beneficial microclimate.

[seneca196]

By definition, growing any variety as an espalier will probably improve the flavour - including high-yielding supermaret varieties.

Indeed, if you ignore the aesthetics, flavour is the main reason for using these forms. The flavour should be better from a combination of the greatly reduced yield which a trained form implies, the much better access to sunlight on to the fruit as it ripens, and (if you are training against a south-facing wall) the beneficial microclimate.

That must also be the case for fans, especially where stone/soft fruits are concerned. Regarding apples and pears, I've seen more espaliers than fans. I've always thoughts fans would be easier, as you can afford to make the odd mistake here and there and get away it, whereas any mishap/bad luck is harder to get away with. Espaliers popularity must lie in it's formal elegance, whereas fans can occasionally end up looking like a hedge of fruit against a wall. I suppose it's all a matter of how defined the straight fan branches are that radiate from the centre.

On a separate issue, has anyone an opinion on trying to grow and espalier in a large pot on a patio against a trellis. My mother would like one to look at when she's in her living room, but her patio can only have plants in pots, as it is covered entirely with paving slabs. I thought I could get a 100l + container and attach a study trellis to the wall. The patio is in full sun for 2/3 of the day, so something like an opal plum fan would be perfect. Especially as, being in her eighties, she really only eats soft fruits or apples in deserts with custard or ice cream!

[orangepippin]

Yes fans are less formal, and therefore far more forgiving if things go wrong - and the fruit quality is just as good.

If you ever find yourself in Versailles, avoid the crowds at the palace and instead head to the Potager du Roi - the king's vegetable patch. It's a bit bigger than your average allotment ... and full of every conceivable style of trained fruit tree.

[Kristen]

Espalier apples at East Ruston Old Vicarage (Norfolk)



Mine! as we draw towards the end of Season 2:



I have some cobnuts on the left, the idea is that it is a "Fruit and Nut" garden, based on my favourite food ... just need the Cocoa plants now

[chrisdb]

By definition, growing any variety as an espalier will probably improve the flavour - including high-yielding supermaret varieties.

I think even free-standing trees of supermarket varieties often produce better flavoured fruit at home. Often supermarket fruit seems to have been picked too early to meet demand or try to compensate for long, slow supply chains. The supermarkets' goal is to sell you an acceptable Cox or Gala at the lowest cost, not to sell you the best possible Cox or Gala.

My most recent example of this is a young Fiesta apple in the garden that produced 5 apples this year for the first time. Fiesta is one the many recently bred apples to taste a bit like Cox, and I thnk there has been limited commercial production. So... not one of the classic great taste apples people always mention. But I can honestly say from eating two of the five that they taste far better than most real Cox apples I've bought from supermarkets.

I selected the Fiesta though mainly because I wanted a high yielding fairly reliable eating apple that kept well. Yield is important to me for big plants like fruit trees because I want to produce as much organic and more or less chemical free produce at home as I can. If I grow it myself I know exactly what I'm getting! And the impact on the family diet of a few exquisite but low yielding apples won't be very much.

a lot of people in this thread said that if you plant commercial varieties you might as well just buy from the supermarket. But I think there are perfectly valid reasons to choose high yields over perfect flavour, as I described above.