Fruit trees, pots and root bags.

[Monster]

Hi, I've got a few questions about container-grown fruit trees. I'd like a mini-orchard for my allotment, obviously space is at a premium and there are height restrictions etc. so I've gone for vertical cordon trees (apples, pears, plums, cherry, greengage) where possible. They are potted up for the time being. I'd also like to get a fig, a quince and a peach tree.

I have read in a couple of places that you can restrict the roots and therefore the height of the tree by just planting them in a pot sunk most of the way into the ground. This sounds like it would be ideal way for me to plant the cordons, as if I move to a house with a nice sunny garden in the next few years I might like to move a couple of the trees there. Is this correct? Has anyone tried it? Would a root control bag be better?
Just lifting the potted tree out of the ground after several years seems a little too easy to be true, I worry a bit about the roots busting out through holes in the bottom of the pot unseen and the tree growing out of control.

I've grown an apple tree in a pot before (from a seed as a kid...rubbish fruit but it was a pretty tree and I had it for 11 years) and it was OK with just one on the patio but a lot of watering in the summer and I'd prefer not to have to do quite that much watering for ten or so trees, also my site is a bit windy in the winter. I know they'd still need a bit of extra care but hopefully in the ground they wouldn't dry out so fast even in a pot. Plus they won't blow over.

Second, the fig and peach would be in containers permanently so I would be able to move them under cover or into sun as needed. Is there any reason why I could not put them in a rootbag, and then in some kind of planter for more stability (I was thinking of making a few nice wooden ones with slats on the bottom)? Would the solid walls of the planter interfere with the root bag if they touched? I don't want to buy a root bag to help the trees have healthier root systems and then just negate it with a planter that is too small and acting like a normal pot anyway.

Finally, one question about peach trees. For potted apples etc I've read not to use very dwarfing rootstocks because the pot will restrict them enough, so you should use a more vigorous rootstock. Does this go for peaches too? I know you can get the teeny genetic dwarf ones for patios, but if I planted a normal peach in a pot/bag would this work the same way as apples? I've not been able to find too much info on this but I've seen in the description for peaches on St Julien A "bring indoors or cover" on a few different nursery websites implying they can grow in pots OK.

OK that was quite long, thanks for reading if you slogged through that...

[starloc]

Peaches grow fine in pots, I have them on StJulianA and on there own roots in pots, the reason they say to take indoors or cover is just for the leaf curl,
in pots was the only way for most people for years as they could control the flowering time, warm them up by heating the greenhouse at the end of December and you got the fruit earlier so they could ripen outdoors before the summer ended in the UK

"The culture of fruit trees in pots" by Josh Brace is a good book, published in 1904 but reprinted a few years ago as well

[YFS]

I have read in a couple of places that you can restrict the roots and therefore the height of the tree by just planting them in a pot sunk most of the way into the ground.
...

If they are restricted, wont this hamper the growth of fruit?

[Monster]

If they are restricted, wont this hamper the growth of fruit?

Only by making the tree smaller, if you look after it properly that is. I think it makes some fruits fruit more/earlier than if they are left to their own devices, like figs.
I have to sacrifice some potential yield to be able to have fruit trees at all, I can't have big spreading ones as i can only grow at an allotment. Small trees or no trees : (

[boundtothesoil]

I have read in a couple of places that you can restrict the roots and therefore the height of the tree by just planting them in a pot sunk most of the way into the ground. This sounds like it would be ideal way for me to plant the cordons, as if I move to a house with a nice sunny garden in the next few years I might like to move a couple of the trees there. Is this correct? Has anyone tried it? Would a root control bag be better?

I have several hundred young apple trees grown from seeds in black plastic 5.5 litre pots (obtained from supermarket cut flower displays) containing 50:50 mix of multipurpose compost and topsoil, sunk two-thirds into the ground. I give them a dressing of controlled release fertiliser each spring and they grow well. They are planted just a pot width apart and I am growing them all as minarette types with a single leader. Like you, I have done this because I may want to move them all in the next couple of years.

It works very well for me, even in these 'tiny' pots, provided one keeps them watered during the driest weather.

The oldest of these trees are starting their fifth year of growth and some are well over 8 ft tall. The photo below (taken in September 2014) shows some of these and their pots. They need staking though, but only with bamboos.

[Monster]

Thanks for your replies!

I have several hundred young apple trees...move them all

Oh wow. That sounds involved!
What are you growing them from seed for, new varieties? Have any of them cropped yet? I don't really believe many cordon trees fruit as heavily as the ones in the nursery catalogue pics do.

I just found out that plums/cherries/gages etc shouldn't be grown as cordons :/ Guess I'll be fan training those ones. Good job I didn't buy them as ready-made minarettes.

[boundtothesoil]

What are you growing them from seed for, new varieties? Have any of them cropped yet? .

I started crossing varietes five years ago, pretty much for fun and just out of interest. I can recommend it as a journey into the longterm unknown, given that every seedling is genetically unique. However, I've become quite addicted and plan to keep producing between 400-500 seedlings per year. Trouble is that I don't have enough space to continue much longer.

Three seedlings from crosses made in 2010 flowered during 2014., with one going on to produce an apple,which I ate . These were my first flowers, but I guess that they will not be my last, not that I'm in any particular hurry.

Amateur apple breeding used to be a popular pastime in Victorian and Edwardian times, but seems to have fallen out of favour in a big way. A couple of years ago there was a thread on here called 'where have all the amateur apple breeders gone' and they certainly didn't seem to be here!

[Moopmoop]

with one going on to produce an apple, which I ate

Tell us what it tasted like?

[boundtothesoil]

Tell us what it tasted like?

Better than it might have. It was a cross between Lord Lambourne and Discovery. Quite sweet and crisp, with an aroma of vanilla, more like a Lambourne than Discovery.

[Monster]

I started crossing varietes five years ago, pretty much for fun and just out of interest. I can recommend it as a journey into the longterm unknown, given that every seedling is genetically unique.

That's great! Maybe I will try growing apples from seed again one day. A new local variety to go with the elusive 'Withington Welter'.

[seneca196]

just a thought about watering pots in the ground - does sinking them mean they don't need regular watering? Presumably, any water in the ground around the pots (rainfall) will get into the pots through the holes. If the pot is dry, but there is moisture around it in the soil, then the dry soil will soak up water through the holes. I can imagine cutting the bottoms of pots will allow more water in and quicker. Can any confirm this?

[Monster]

I'm not sure how much extra water would be absorbed through the drainage holes but in theory the pot shouldn't dry out as fast to start with. However, the plant's roots are still restricted so I don't think i'd rely on the potentially small extra amount of water that would find its way in through drainage holes. I don't know about cutting the bottoms off, that would render the pots useless for my purposes.

[Kristen]

just a thought about watering pots in the ground - does sinking them mean they don't need regular watering? Presumably, any water in the ground around the pots (rainfall) will get into the pots through the holes. If the pot is dry, but there is moisture around it in the soil, then the dry soil will soak up water through the holes. I can imagine cutting the bottoms of pots will allow more water in and quicker. Can any confirm this?

Don't think its quite the salvation that you hope! The plant's roots are restricted, so it uses up all the water in the container more quickly compared to being in the soil (where the roots would be more spread out and surrounding water would "move" to drier areas). The only way that the pot can pull up water is by capillary action from the base, that will dry out the area just under the pot so its not efficient enough, on its own, to support the plant's needs.

But ... I agree that it reduces the watering required. Any excess water flows through the pot into the soil below, and is available for reabsorption. probably less evaporation as pot is cooler than if it was stood in the sun on hot paving slabs! (and plant may appreciate the cooler root-run too). Plants don't blow over in strong wind either, compared to standing them on a hard surface.

You might have issues with the plant rooting through the pot's drainage holes. I put a pair of ropes (knotted in the centre, at the bottom) under my plunged pots, arranges Cross-shaped, so that I can use those to pull the pots back out of the ground in the Autumn. I use an engine crane to get them out, pumped up until the roots snap and the pot pops out of the ground with, sometimes, some force!

[seneca196]

The engine pump looks great. Very ingenious. Pity it doesn't have axles and wheels like an all-terrain pallet truck. Still, judging by the kit you have at your disposal, bet you have that covered too.

Reason I asked about pots with the base cut off and then put onto soil was purely an idea I had. One of the problems with putting a few trees in a small area is they obviously don't enough space for the roots to develop before they come across the roots of the neighbouring tree and their development is impeded. You know, the whole question of planting semi-vigorous rootstocks too closely. So I thought how about placing a tree in the ground and then nearby another tree, but in a large pot with the base cut off. This way it's roots would first fill the large pot and then root downwards to eventually come close to the roots of the tree in the ground. I have a limited ground space but have been given some large 280l tubs (approx. 95cm X 55cm) and would imagine a tree on a semi vigorous while would take a few years to fill it and then eventually grow down into the soil. Is this crazy, or is there some logic (albeit crazy too!) to the idea. Probably mad I know, but I'm never going to move such large pots, so it makes a certain "sense" to cut off the base and leave them permanently in-situ.

[boundtothesoil]

But ... I agree that it reduces the watering required. Any excess water flows through the pot into the soil below, and is available for reabsorption. probably less evaporation as pot is cooler than if it was stood in the sun on hot paving slabs! (and plant may appreciate the cooler root-run too). Plants don't blow over in strong wind either, compared to standing them on a hard surface.

You might have issues with the plant rooting through the pot's drainage holes.

I agree with what Kristen says here. With the 5.5 liter pots I use for growing apple seedling trees, I drill 6 x one inch diam drainage holes in the bottom. After a couple of years growth, the roots begin to penetrate through these into the subsoil. As far as I'm concerned this is beneficial overall, as it (1) helps with anchorage and (2) helps with water and nutrient uptake, when the pot soil dries out.

I definitely believe that sinking the pots into the ground reduces watering requirements during the summer, as Kristen says. This reduction can be particularly significant with black coloured pots which absorb the heat rather then reflect it.

The biggest problem I have with sinking pots into the ground is intermittent waterlogging of the base during winter, as my subsoil is a very heavy clay which drains very poorly. I have tried putting a six inch layer of gravel under the pots, but with mixed success.