Family apple tree - choosing variety and where to plant

[IndigoElectron]

I really like the idea of growing a family apple tree at the bottom of our garden. We don't have a very big garden, so don't have space for more than one tree.

At the moment the bottom of the garden is occupied by a hebe (about 3-4 metres tall) and a small conifer. I want to get rid of both of these and replace them with the family tree.

I've spoken to a tree surgeon and he said he can remove both of the trees, as well as the stump and roots by digging them up. I'm attaching some photos of the area (the close up is where I want to plant the tree, it's where the hebe is). There do seem to be a lot of fine roots in the ground, and there is also the remains of a bush which I cut down (I tried to dig the roots out but couldn't). The border is about 40 cm wide, I think. Sorry the photos have come up sideways, I can't get them straight!



My first question is whether or not it is realistic to actually grow an apple tree in this space. I believe if I get one on M26 rootstock it will grow to about the same size as the hebe. Is it okay to plant a new tree where one has just been dug up, and can I do it straight away or do I need to wait until the soil has been replenished (e.g. with garden compost) and any remaining roots rotted away? Also, if I do plant the tree here, will the roots end up damaging the patio slabs?

If I can put a tree here, I have no idea how to choose! I've looked on Deacon's Nursery website, and they have an amazing selection, including loads of varieties I've never heard of. I know I need to consider my location (East London) and resistance to disease, but what about the flavour? I like crisp sweet juicy apples - a good Royal Gala is probably my favourite out of the supermarket varieties. I also had some Egremont Russets from Riverford once, and they were nice. I don't want any cooking apples at all, and I really dislike apples with a soft grainy texture.

Also, Deacon's offer double, triple, quad and even a quin tree! It would be amazing to have 4 or 5 different varieties but I've heard things about the different parts of the tree growing at different rates, and one variety taking over, so might it be better to stick to a double or triple?

Here are the links to the Deacon's family trees (they also do 'Jenny' trees but I don't really understand what these are). Any advice greatly appreciated.

General Family Apples | Deacon's Nursery
Family Jenny Apples | Deacon's Nursery

[Kirk]

The Jenny (quad) variety seems to be named after their daughter and may be a bit specialised concerning their purpose, not easy to work out as little real description.

I half (or less) suspect that you have 4 varieties - 2 on one side one above the other and the same on the other side.

The idea being grow the 2 lower varieties horizontally as a espelier and the 2 upper ones vertical (or angled upwards) as cordons.

Mixing varieties, difficult as most of them are grown more by the name then the suitability. Bramleys are vigerous and will out grow the others varieties on the tree, but people half expect a bramley even if it is a bad option.

There was a program with Alice (Someone/redhead) who visited a person that grafted family apples and they had a tree with 25 varieties. Sorry to be vague.

I think it was on "The ABC of gardening" likely the first on the basis that A is for Apple.
May be worth searching the BBC player thingy as it may give the details. Person who did the grafting may be available for information.

Think you may have to sit down and search something like orangepippin and identify moderate/strong groing varieties and make sure that all the varieties are similar - suspect moderate being the best.

Triploids tend to be vigerous and they are likely to take over. Bramly is a triploid.

[Kirk]

Looks like the person was Paul Barnett.
Wasn't 25 varieties, it was 250.

Has a website but not a lot on it:Paul Barnett Trees
Gives an email and a phone, but nothing really on buying a tree.

Also from the pictures seems to be Alys not Alice was the person.

[FB.]

I really like the idea of growing a family apple tree at the bottom of our garden. We don't have a very big garden, so don't have space for more than one tree.

I would recommend a few cordons or other trained forms, on M9 or M26 rootstock.

.....whether or not it is realistic to actually grow an apple tree in this space.

Yes, it's possible, if you choose a suitable variety and rootstock. The spot looks like it might not get a lot of direct sun, so some varieties may not like it - failing to blossom or producing small, bitter, worthless fruit.
Direct sun = more photosynthesis = more sugars = better tree growth, more blossom, bigger fruit, sweeter fruit.

I believe if I get one on M26 rootstock it will grow to about the same size as the hebe.

Mature size depends on many factors, including amount of rainfall/watering, amount of feeding/soil fertility/soil depth, climate, pruning technique and the influence of the variety grafted onto the rootstock. Also a big influence if you spray the tree against pests and diseases, since when it's spending energy fighting them it's not using that energy to grow or fruit as much. I don't do anything to mine and they have to compete with grass and other plant roots. I grow mine on big rootstocks in poor shallow dry soil with lots of other plant competition. Mine don't grow very fast as a result - only growing at dwarf rates.
As mentioned in an above posting: some varieties - such as Bramley and some other triploids - override and virtually turbocharge dwarf rootstocks.

Is it okay to plant a new tree where one has just been dug up, and can I do it straight away or do I need to wait until the soil has been replenished (e.g. with garden compost) and any remaining roots rotted away?

Replacing with the same or related type of plant has a risk of 'replant disease', but with unrelated plants the only problem might be a bit of a lack of soil nutrients, although they will be replaced as the small roots of the removed tree rot away over the next several years.

Also, if I do plant the tree here, will the roots end up damaging the patio slabs?

Risk of damage is largely dependend on how big the tree is allowed to get. Big tree = big roots. Small tree = small roots. Apple trees tend not to have many big roots compared to other types of tree, which is probably why a lot of apple trees eventually fall over.

I know I need to consider my location (East London) and resistance to disease,

Rarer varieties, especially rare triploid varieties, tend to have better disease resistance - probably because the extra chromosomes give them 50% more genes from which to find some resistance mechanism with which to fight off a disease.
In addition to disease resistance, triploids also cope well in horrible conditions, and tend to be very long-lived and as a result tend to get larger than their diploid companions. The surviving, neglected trees in old orchards are often triploid.

but what about the flavour? I like crisp sweet juicy apples - a good Royal Gala is probably my favourite out of the supermarket varieties. I also had some Egremont Russets from Riverford once, and they were nice. I don't want any cooking apples at all, and I really dislike apples with a soft grainy texture.

Not all varieties behave the same in all climates. Some like it hot. Some like it cool. Some like lots of sun. Some don't mind quite a lot of shade. Some like it dry. Some like it wet. If a variety is not in its preferred location it can be terrible. Old varieties may be brilliant in their native area but less impressive a long distance away.

Also, Deacon's offer double, triple, quad and even a quin tree! It would be amazing to have 4 or 5 different varieties but I've heard things about the different parts of the tree growing at different rates, and one variety taking over, so might it be better to stick to a double or triple?

Here are the links to the Deacon's family trees (they also do 'Jenny' trees but I don't really understand what these are). Any advice greatly appreciated.

'Jenny' is just their name for a tree where the bottom branches are one variety, middle branches another, upper branches another. So it's several scions stacked on top of each other.
I think family trees are likely to be difficult to keep looking nice, due to the often very different growth rate, growth habit and fruiting habit of each variety.

[FB.]

Also, why bother growing a variety which you can find in the shops?

Trying to think of the larger trees I have at the moment, mostly on MM111 or M25 (I also have some other varieties on smaller rootstocks, but the ones on bigger rootstocks are the varieties I find do best for me with no attention required - although nearly every variety has an 'issue' of some kind, even if the books don't mention one)......

Early:
Gladstone
Irish Peach

Early-mid
Gravenstein
Laxton's Epicure
Tydeman's Early Worcester

Mid
Emperor Alexander
Gascoyne's Scarlet
Herring's Pippin

Mid-late
Belle de Boskoop
Jupiter
Ribston Pippin
Spartan

Late
Ashmead's Kernel
Court Pendu Plat
d'Arcy Spice
Edward VII
Hambledon Deux Ans
Milton Wonder
Winter Majetin

[FB.]

Other varieties which I would add to my larger trees, if I had the time/space/motivation/scionwood (some I've had in the past but lost to rootstock disease brought from the nursery, some I already have as smaller bushes or cordons)....

Adams Pearmain
Alfriston
Annie Elizabeth
Ard Cairn Russet
Barnack Beauty
Beauty of Bath
Blenheim Orange
Bloody Ploughman
Brownlees Russet
Colonel Vaughan
Cornish Gilliflower
Coul Blush
Crawley Beauty
Golden Noble
Grenadier
Howgate Wonder
Jumbo
Monarch
Norfolk Beefing
Peasgood's Nonsuch
Reverend Wilks
Scotch Bridget
St. Edmunds Pippin
Sturmer Pippin
Tower of Glamis
White Transparent
Winter Gem

[IndigoElectron]

Thank you both, that information is really helpful.

I forgot to say that the area where I want to put the tree is south facing, though obviously quite a bit of light is blocked by the surrounding houses and fence.

I considered cordons but I really would prefer an ordinary tree. I prefer the look of them, and we have quite a few birds that use the tree we currently have. I like to hang fat balls for them from the branches, and don't think I could do that with a cordon. And I feel like cordons would take up more horizontal space than a single family tree, which we just don't have.

As for varieties, I am much more interested in ones I can't buy in the shops, especially if they are more disease resistant. Is there any way of telling which varieties would be more suitable for my location? And is it better to go for triploid varieties because they're more disease resistant, or diploid because they won't get so big? All of the family trees I've looked at are on M26 rootstock, so it looks like that's what I'll end up with. I assume that whatever I choose, the varieties should all be the same on the one tree (either diploid or triploid), to give them a better chance of growing at roughly the same rate.

Sorry for all the questions but I really am clueless when it comes to apple trees!

[FB.]

How big do you want the 'tree' to be when it's mature in 10-15 years?
How tall? How wide? What height of trunk?

[IndigoElectron]

Good question :-) I think about 3 metres high, definitely not more than 4. I'll have to go out and measure the area to answer the other questions but probably won't get a chance until Thursday - I have a toddler and am at work tomorrow and Wednesday, there never seems to be enough time to do the simplest jobs!

I would estimate about a 1-1/2 metre spread and a trunk about half a metre diameter, but I'm guessing really. Basically I only want it about the size of the hebe it will replace.

Can I get back to you in a couple of days after I've taken measurements? Thanks for all the advice so far, I really appreciate it.

[Paulieb]

Are there any other trees in your garden or your neighbours gardens that you know of?

There may be, however if not you'll need varieties that will cross pollinate.

This 'should' be taken care of with a family tree, however, for information,
A triploid can not pollinate anything else and needs two other varieties flowering at the same time
Diploids can pollinate each other provided they're in the same poll. group.
Few varieties may be described as self fertile but will be much better with a pollination partner.
Most varieties are self sterile, meaning they will need a pollination partner.

[IndigoElectron]

Great, thanks Paulie. I will bear that in mind.

[yummersetter]

Can you bear to think about it for six months or so before buying your tree? If so, you could go to an Apple Day event that offers fruit varieties for tasting ( though some lovely apples mature later than October). You might think about visiting the National Collection at Brogdale, in Kent in autumn too if you really get interested.

[FB.]

Can you bear to think about it for six months or so before buying your tree?

'Bare root' nurseries have mostly stopped taking orders, so they might have to wait. Probably only expensive container-grown trees will be available for the next 7-8 months.

My pears will be in full flower any day now. My apples aren't far behind. Beauty of Bath, Gladstone and Irish Peach will probably be ready in early July at this rate.

[IndigoElectron]

Yes, I'm happy to wait. I wasn't planning to get the trees cut down until the autumn anyway - the hebe is lovely in summer, and the bees like it. Hopefully they won't grow much bigger between now and then! I'll see if there are any events I can get to, thanks for the advice Yummersetter.

[IndigoElectron]

Okay, I've got some measurements. The border where the hebe is planted (where the tree will go) measures about 60 cm from the fence to the start of the patio. The spread of the hebe is about 1-1/2 metres, and it has several 'trunks' which altogether measure about 30-40 cm.

I do like the idea of one big (3-4 metre high) family tree at the bottom of the garden, but now I am wondering now though if I should get some smaller cordon trees instead. The border where I plan to plant the apple tree measures 2 metres by 0.6 metres - maybe a row of cordons would be better. How many could I fit in this space? I quite fancy a pear tree too, perhaps I could get something like these two:

Duo Cordon Apple Tree | Family Red Falstaff & Cox | Reads Nursery
Duo Cordon Pear, Conference & Comice - Reads Nursery

It's so hard to make a decision! Help!