Lonely apple tree

[muddled]

A few years ago, my lovely brother bought me an apple tree.

The variety is 'The Queen Mary' and it was thought to a 'lost' extinct type until rediscovery in a medieval orchard somewhere in Norfolk in 2003.

At the time we bought it we assumed (and the orchardman agreed) that living in London, there were bound to be pollinators nearby...perhaps not enough for a really bumper crop....but enough for my little family.

Unfortunately, this has turned out not to be the case.
I got the tree as a maiden about five years ago and have yet to find even an embryonic fruit on it.
The tree seems to flower quite late....the blossom is only now starting to open. I forget the number of the rootstock but it was the one that grows to 12 feet high, 12 feet wide. (I took off the main stem at five feet as instructed.)

So, questions.....
If I manage to find one...could I buy the same variety on dwarf stock for pollination? My garden is not big enough for two big trees!

And if I can't find another Queen Mary, how do I find out which pollination group/variety will work?
(typical me; can't remember the name of the company.....they had a stall at Wisley)

[veggiechicken]

English Apples, UK apples, Tesco, News, DIVERSITY WEBSITE, supermarket, supermarkets
APPLE UNCOVERED
The Queen Mary apple, thought to have been lost, has been found in an overgorwn orchard near Haddiscoe, Norfolk. Bred in Sussex and noted for its flavour, it won the Bunyard Cup for the best new apple in 1920. It will be shown at the "Roots of Norfolk" Museum in Gressenhall on 19 Oct, 2003. (Times, 3 Oct 03)

Hope one of our Apple experts can help you, Muddled.

[veggiechicken]

http://www.applesandorchards.org.uk/...ter%202003.pdf

I'm intrigued and need to find out more..............

[chrisdb]

The rootstock might be mm106, that's probably the most common one offered and does often give a tree about that size.

The problem is, if your tree is self sterile it needs to be pollinated by a different variety, not another tree of the same variety. If another flower of the same variety would do it then your tree would bear fruit, since it would typically have multiple flowers open at the same time during its flowering period.

I don't think there are any major incompatibility groups for apples, although a few specific combinations don't work, so you mostly need to find a variety that:

1. flowers at the same time (record when yours flowers this year and compare with other varieties - maybe Brogdale publishes when different varieties flower each year?)

2. Is known to be a good pollinator, and in particular avoid triploids at all cost

One good option might be a crab apple, many of which flower over a long period and will pollinate most eating apples without problems. Some of these have a very upright, columnar habit and might be suitable if you don't have much space. If not, you could grow another eating apple in a restricted form, e.g. as a cordon or an espalier against a fence.

[fishpond]

Interestingly, it is not in any of my books immediately to hand, so I will have a look through some more tomorrow.

[FB.]

I forget the number of the rootstock but it was the one that grows to 12 feet high, 12 feet wide. (I took off the main stem at five feet as instructed.)

Probably MM106, possibly M26 or MM111.

If I manage to find one...could I buy the same variety on dwarf stock for pollination? My garden is not big enough for two big trees!

No, two trees of the same variety at best won't be good pollinators for each other and at worst won't cross-pollinate at all. Why? Because they're from the same original tree with the same genetic code.

And if I can't find another Queen Mary, how do I find out which pollination group/variety will work?
(typical me; can't remember the name of the company.....they had a stall at Wisley)

If it's only just coming into flower I'd say it's at the late end of mid-season (on the A-H scale, it's probably group E), but there are varieties which flower much later.

A good pollinator for it would be an unrelated variety in group D or E, although varieties can move their pollination group in different locations due to differences in climate.

Be very careful choosing a pollinator because many varieties are still listed as diploid by nurseries but a few years ago a study shocked some nurserymen by confirming that far more varieties are triploid than would be expected, especially old, tough, long-lived varieties. I had long suspected many of the old varieties to be triploid - and I'd say the odds are fairly high that your 'Queen Mary' will turn out to be triploid too if anyone bothered to genetically analyse it.

If you can get some pictures of the fully open leaves in mid-summer, it may be possible to have a go at guessing whether it's triploid because triploids tend to have large, thick, dark, rounded leaves compared to diploids. Triploids also tend to produce relatively large fruit and relatively few, small or mis-shapen seeds - and most of their seeds don't germinate.

[Kirk]

I had a somewhat similar problem some years back, the apples I had were all triploids, not sure how I managed that.
I bought myself 2 of the Ken Muir Minarettes, a cooker and a crab.
They grow basically to 2 meters but as a central trunk with short branches that seem to all point up. The whole thing being about 18 or 20 inches across.
Takes almost no space, and you can pick a late variety.

I eventually removed the crab and kept the cooker.
I get about a dozen apples off it, quite big, unfortunately they all seem to grow on the top bit, sort of well out of reach. But the purpose of it was to take little space and to act as a pollinator, which it did well.

[muddled]

Thank you all for your speedy and knowlegeable replies!

I just looked up what diploid and triploid means and I think I'm starting to understand now.
Pollination group E (now that you've said it) definitely rings a bell.
The Queen Mary is descended from a James Grieve and a William Crump so am I right in thinking I should avoid those two?

So I'm best off looking for a crab apple tree and another tree from group E (or failing that, group D since group seems to be the smallest pollination group)

I might pop round a couple of garden centres tomorrow and see if there's any apple trees with budding blossom on to match my pretty little tree






Oh dear...sideways again!
If anyone clever pops in, please can you spin my picture round? Thank you!

[FB.]

The first leaves don't look triploid.

If it's a James Grieve cross which has almost disappeared it's not that old and hasn't stood the test of time well - triploids tend to be unusually tough, healthy and long-lived which doesn't sound like characteristics of the variety you have.

So it may well be diploid - more pics later in the year would help confirm.

Avoid its parents as pollinators because they won't be as effective as an unrelated variety.

I'm sceptical of the pollination value of many of the group E varieties because I either suspect them to be triploid or they haven't been genetically tested or they're not especially disease resistant.
A variety from group D should pollinate a group E.

Lack of fruit could also be because the tree is one of those varieties which takes a long time to start cropping, even if it produces flowers. I've found that an unhappy MM106 tree will flower profusely but not produce much fruit. Is your tree putting on good growth?

[muddled]

Is your tree putting on good growth?

Erm.....I'm not sure (it's my first ever baby tree so I don't know really what to expect) but I suspect not.
The tree has had some problems....aphids and ants last year, a neighbours tomcat spraying it repeatedly the year before. Before budding this spring I found a couple of scale insect on it (been over it very thoroughly since and think it really was just a couple)

So it does seem entirely possible that I have simply not made this tree happy enough to set fruit!

Perhaps a belt and braces approach then?
One crab apple to promote pollination along with a top dressing of slow release fertliser round the base? Or do you think it would be better in the long run if I don't get the crab apple and waste the trees energy setting fruit this season, instead concentrating on getting it healthy first?

When my husband gets back I'll take a picture of the whole tree (it's not big and pretty spindly) and get him to load the pic on here.

and thank you again, I really appreciate the advice

[fishpond]

Interestingly, it is not in any of my books immediately to hand, so I will have a look through some more tomorrow.

Sadly, not anything, so I can only assume what FB has said, in that it wasn't highly thought of.

[muddled]

I'll let you know if it was all worth it if I ever manage to get an apple!

The taste is supposed to be beautiful and very aromatic, the flesh crisp and juicy and the colour orangey red.
It sounded lovely.

[FB.]

Sadly, not anything, so I can only assume what FB has said, in that it wasn't highly thought of.

I've never heard of it.
Maybe it was outdone by another variety with similar characteristics.
Or maybe it was a variety which only did well in the area it originated. Centuries ago, in some localities it was not generally possible to grow certain types of fruit trees, so those seedlings which survived were highly prized in that area but nothing special to those with better soils and climates.
Most varieties have a preferred soil and climate (and possibly rootstock) where they give their best performance; put the wrong variety in the wrong soil and climate and the tree can be unhappy and/or the fruit worthless.

[FB.]

I'll let you know if it was all worth it if I ever manage to get an apple!

The taste is supposed to be beautiful and very aromatic, the flesh crisp and juicy and the colour orangey red.
It sounded lovely.

Investigate if something might be wrong with your soil. Post some pictures of the area where you struggling tree is planted to show what's nearby and what the soil looks like.

Try it on a stronger rootstock - M25 or MM111.

[FB.]

Well, I've just been outside tidying and my only remaining MM106 half-standard (it's probably 4-5 years old and was completely healthy when planted) is dying of crown rot even though it's in my most favourable spot where the soil is deeper, more fertile and has better moisture retention (but does not waterlog).

The tree is very late to get going this year and didn't put on as much growth as expected last year.
Now there's the tell-tale dark, sunken, canker-like patch on the trunk emerging from ground level and travelling up the trunk. The chances of survival are poor.

My parents-in-law's 25+ year medium-size mature apple tree (presumed on MM106) is also showing the signs of a sudden massive attack of crown rot. The chances of survival are effectively nil.

It seems as if there's a strain of crown rot spreading across the country which quickly and efficiently kills MM106 apple trees in particular.