Which tiny apple tree please?

[JaniceH]

Hi all
In taking over my allotment in February we had to have taken out a huge, massively uncared for apple tree of unknown variety. There are several on the site that were earmarked for removal. Lots of people have got little apple trees on the site and the rules state that now we have to have M27 rootstock or less?

I don't know anything about apples at all, but it would be nice to have a patio sized Apple tree that I could learn to care for properly. Can anyone recommend exactly what I should get please?

If it helps; I live in south Cheshire, looking for an eating Apple specifically and as a family we like Braeburn type apples. The plot (and the place for the tree) is in full sun and we have good but sandy soil. The Apple will be planted through weed suppressant membrane. Lots of other Apple trees on the site of unknown variety, as the plots have been there 50 years. I have only space for one tree.

Any info would be gratefully received, so much to learn!

[veggiechicken]

If you like Braeburn, why don[t you grow those? https://www.ashridgetrees.co.uk/braeburn-apple-trees

[JaniceH]

If you like Braeburn, why don[t you grow those? https://www.ashridgetrees.co.uk/braeburn-apple-trees

Thanks Veggie chicken but that website states:

"To avoid a disappointing flavour, we really recommend this tree for sheltered sites with full sun in Southern areas."

Rootstocks:
All of our Braeburn trees are grown on MM106 rootstocks, except for the cordons, which are grown on M9 rootstocks"

So it looks like a true Braeburn won't grow up here in the north west and those ones aren't an allowable rootstock on our site sadly. I might have to find a variety that just tastes sweet and crunchy then.

[spamvindaloo]

Taste is very subjective and everybody would give you a different answer as to the best tree to grow. You could also ask your fellow plotholders as they could recommend a variety which does well on your site. You could contact a good nursery, telling them what type of apple you like and your location for recommendations. There are a lot of fruit tree experts on here (I'm not!) who maybe able to make a recommendation based on your location and taste preferences.

As regards rootstock, M27 is about as low as it goes. It will have shallow roots and require a stake for all of its life. Try to get a trained tree from a good nursery and it may already be partly established. It is getting a bit late for this year though. M9 is only a little bigger than M27 and may pass for a larger M27.

Plant into a bag of John Innes 3 and water in well. This is what I was told to do by the nursery I bought my trees from and they've established well.

[sparrow100]

Don't Blackmoor have dwarf Braeburn trees? I've just seen some in a fab nursery just outside Crediton (taking refuge from the seasonal hail, honest!) and I'd swear they had Blackmoor labels on.

I have a patio Christmas Pippin. It has delicious tart, crisp apples and is about 6ft high on its M27 rootstock.

Admittedly I'm in London, but till recently it's been growing in boggy shade and coped admirably.

[FB.]

Be careful to choose a variety that will ripen properly in your area, and which has reasonable resistance to the most likely diseases you'll face which are canker and scab.

Planting a young tree, especially one with dwarf roots, into the spot where a big old tree of the same species recently lived, can result in 'replant disease' which is where the soil all around is so full of apple-root-munching bugs and fungi that a young tree can't get going.
For replant situations, it sometimes requires monster rootstocks to get anything established.

Regarding more vigorous rootstock: how would most people know what you planted? Maybe you lost the label or maybe the tree must have been mislabelled in the nursery (actually mislabelling does happen, especially discounted trees, and some naughty nurseries 'substitute' for something sort of similar if they don't have what you want, but still label it as what you wanted).

If I was you, in your location and situation (not necessarily elsewhere), I might consider either MM106 or MM111 rootstock and tell a little lie as to what the rootstock is.

[Jay-ell]

Alot of the nurseries are no longer selling trees for this year. If you find a tree in a pot you can plant it anytime but a bare root tree should be planted when it's dormant.

Have a look at these sites to read about apples, varieties, vigour, climate etc, they're full of great info.

Braeburn apple trees for sale | Buy online | Friendly advice

Braeburn apple trees for sale | Order online

[Bigmallly]

Would a 3ft Espalier be acceptable on a more vigorous rootstock?

[FB.]

Would a 3ft Espalier be acceptable on a more vigorous rootstock?

I once saw a two-dimensional espalier, with 'arms' pointing in four directions instead of the usual two.

As for rootstock.......yeah, the label definitely said M27, honest.

Actually the super-espalier mentioned above was on the big M25 rootstock and the 'arms' were each about 6-7ft long and the whole thing was about 6-7ft high.

[Jay-ell]

The vigour of the variety can have an impact on the tree. A vigorous variety on a dwarfing rootstock may still grow larger than a less vigorous variety on a "larger" rootstock.

I think Bramley is an example of a very vigorous variety which would still get big on a very dwarfing rootstock. In fact Bramley is a triploid and alot of the triploids are supposed to be quite vigorous, erm such as Jonagold - which I have 4 of.

You should also think about pollination partners, although if alot of the other plot holders have trees this is most likely covered but in the unlikely off-chalance that they all have group A trees and you get a group D .... (well you said they have trees, you never said that they actually get apples).

You said that you only have space for one tree - have you looked at Family Trees which have multiple varieties on the same tree? Is this space for a fully grown tree, what about growing vertical cordons? less harvest per tree but you could get different compatible varieties and space out the season (early cropper, mid cropper, late cropper, v. late/storage cropper).

[FB.]

....The vigour of the variety can have an impact on the tree. A vigorous variety on a dwarfing rootstock may still grow larger than a less vigorous variety on a "larger" rootstock.
....

Yes, and that is made more complex by each variety (and rootstock) preferring particular soil types and climates.
Plus the way different people define 'vigorous' because some people use it to refer to varieties which grow quickly, while others use it to refer to varieties which eventually reach a large size, even if they don't grow very quickly.
Triploids are often referred to as vigorous, but in many cases they only grow at an average rate, but being tougher and more disease resistant than diploids they tend to be able to continue growing consistently at a steady rate even in poor conditions and while under attack by pests and diseases, so it can eventually lead to them getting very large if unpruned.

Tip-bearers have a tendency to grow to a fairly large size because of their tendency to have most of their growth at the ends of branches, plus the more complex pruning required, plus whenever they're given a 'haircut' with shears it tends to remove all flower buds and result in no fruit and vigorous growth for a few years.

[Bigmallly]

Tip-bearers have a tendency to grow to a fairly large size because of their tendency to have most of their growth at the ends of branches, plus the more complex pruning required, plus whenever they're given a 'haircut' with shears it tends to remove all flower buds and result in no fruit and vigorous growth for a few years.

Would that be where festooning could be beneficial FB?

[Jay-ell]

BM,

That's a very interesting question. Never thought about festooning a tip bearing apple but now you mention it it does make sense. I suppose it would be like training an espalier so that the arms are horizontal and are tricked into producing more fruit. Just got to get the pruning right to keep it tidy and productive.

Curse you - I'm now thinking about getting a tip bearer just to try it. Despite the fact I don’t need one - or have space for one. And it doesn't fit in with my plans either (OK I admit that the plan I have today isn't necessarily the same plan I was working to last week - but they're similar. The one from week before, however, was totally different)

P.S.

BM just found this link

Bending the Branches of an Apple Tree Downwards.

[Bigmallly]

Thanks for the link Jay, it will hopefully confirm my trial last year. Maybe it's also a solution for Janice:

http://www.growfruitandveg.co.uk/gra...ml#post1369726

[Kirk]

I would enquire delicately if they mean M27. Just that is generally as small as you can go, so to say M27 or less is a little bit strange. M27 is described as "Extreme dwarfing", M9 is "Dwarfing" and even M26 is describes as "Dwarfing".

I would just ask if they meant M27 or M26 as the "upper" limit rootstock. It would make a little more sense for it to be M26. I suspect that people will be growing beans and peas in bamboo's that are bigger then an apple on M27. A few tomato's also will get taller. It actually reads as that extreme.

Also if you add in that a triploid is often more vigorous then something like Bramley on M27 could still be bigger then something like Braeburn on M9.